Writing Partnerships: Are You Willing To Have A Baby With This Person?
Entrepreneur-author Ryan Foland’s interview will leave your jaw hanging on your chest for the whole episode!
A successful mortgage broker earning thousands, Ryan suddenly spun downwards and became a loser - literally.
Mired in debt, Ryan lost everything. His house was foreclosed and creditors pursued him for months. When they caught up with Ryan, they took away his last remaining asset - his car.
TOP TAKEAWAY: KNOW WHEN TO STAY, AND WHEN TO SAY GOODBYE
On the verge of bankruptcy, Ryan realized he alone could figure a way out of his dire circumstances. And he did. Ryan worked hard, and it paid off. He eventually formed a business partnership with well-known branding expert Leonard Kim.
The two men were really in sync. In fact, they were so successful they even wrote a bestselling, award-winning book, Ditch the Act: Reveal the Surprising Power of the Real You for Greater Success.
But through the process of writing the book, some fundamental personality differences began to emerge. Within months the men were in heavy disagreement about almost everything. Not long after, the writing and business partnership fell apart.
Ryan took a deep, hard look inside and decided he had to walk away from the partnership and their business.
These incredibly tough decisions Ryan has faced in his life have one essential element in common: They come from a place of honesty. Says Ryan: “Those elements of my brand that have been the most successful, it’s when I'm honest with myself and with the world.
“I just couldn't be honest with myself unless I was in a partnership that was truly positive and encouraging and supportive of each other.”
WHEN TO SHARE, HOW MUCH TO SHARE
Next, despite Ryan’s focus on being real and relatable, he says: “One thing that I'll share about Ditching The Act is the importance of not sharing in the moment.
“If you're in the moment of something that's really challenging, it's not necessarily fair to share. Because it's not fair to the audience,” he observes. “They don't know where the outcome is, they don't know what the resolution is.”
Sharing in real time is fine, Ryan clarifies, “But it's when there's drama and things are unsettled . . . and you're airing grievances and you're making unhealthy decisions,” he explains. “And you're putting yourself out there in a way that makes people concerned for your safety.”
Ryan’s honesty means he’s able to move forward with his personal brand without interruption.
He also has some hard-hitting advice for anyone thinking about bringing on a co-author: “Are you willing to have a baby with this person? And I say that in all seriousness, because I feel like Leonard and I had a child, okay? And the child is the book. And we have since gotten divorced.
“Next, whether you have a business partner now or in the future, you have to understand that things are going to change, people change.”
This episode is a real, raw look at what it takes to work in a partnership, and so much more. Ryan shares extensively and honestly with host Josh Steimle, who in turn asks probing questions, bringing to life an amazing entrepreneurial journey.
LINKS
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Josh Steimle
Welcome to the Published Author podcast where we help entrepreneurs learn how to write a book and to leverage it to grow their business and make an impact. I'm your host, Josh Steimle. And today, our guest is Ryan Foland. He's the author of Ditch The Act: Reveal the Surprising Power of The Real You for Greater Success.
Ryan teaches people how to build their brand, get featured in publications and grow their social media following. Ryan's clients include New York Times bestselling authors, venture capitalists, and Fortune 500 executives. And myself, I've actually hired Ryan before he was a, what's the word, the emcee at one of the events that I hosted a few years ago. And he's also spoken at another event that we had in China, which is a whole story in and of itself. But Ryan is also a great speaker. He's a four times TEDx speaker, which might be some sort of record. And he's been featured in Inc, Entrepreneur, Forbes, Mashable. Ryan, welcome to the published author podcast.
Ryan Foland
Well, thank you, sir. It's great to be here. And, you know, I've appreciated not only opportunities that you've brought to my table, but I'd love to see how you continue to help people grow their influence. And I think that we've always worked well together. And we're sort of after the same thing, and the one filter that I try to put on, the lessons that I teach is just the importance of being honest with yourself along the way, so that you don't get caught in a spot where there's a disconnect between who you really are and the message that you're actually sharing.
Josh Steimle
And for those of you who are not watching the video of this, you're listening to this, Ryan is wearing a bumper sticker sized sign on his forehead that says Ditch The Act, the title of his book.
Ryan Foland
It's actually a bookmark that doubles as a bumper sticker for the forehead. And it's a great piece of technology. You know, it's this thing where there's no RDIF chip, there's no battery, there's no USB plugin. But if you open a book, and then you put it in the pages where you left off, and you come back, you open it, and it keeps its place for you. It's just revolutionary. That is super convenient. Off to get one of those, try one of those out. I'm a little behind the times on technology, but I think I can handle this. So Ryan, tell us about your upbringing. I was I was reading your biography on your website, which I had never gotten all that background before, even though I know you. And I'm reading all this crazy stuff about your life. But I want to know, let's go way back to the beginning like childhood, like where did you grow up? What was your home life? Like? How did that influence you? And what did you want to be when you grew up?
Ryan Foland
I grew up in, you know, in Orange County and Huntington Beach on the water, which was very fortunate. And both of my parents were educators. And I think that really stitches back a lot of who I am today, not only valuing education and being passionate about teaching, but also getting in a cadence of working really hard for part of the year and then taking a summer and just relaxing. And so this is something that as a kid worked in my advantage, but also became an Achilles’ heel as I went through elementary school. So each summer, we would literally pack up, jump on the boat, sail over to Catalina my favorite spot where I still spend a lot of time today and just disconnect. But when I would come back to the real world, three months later in school and start sort of I missed all of that connectivity with my friends and the sports and the pool parties and whatever else it was that happened. So I kind of was an easy target to be the outcast to the group. That in the fact that I was pretty much the only freckle-headed ginger in town. So, making it like a double target. So you know, I want to look back and I really had a happy childhood, but it was plagued with different bouts of bullying. And, you know, it's more of a sort of a buzzword topic today. And yes, we've all been bullied. But it really impacted the way that I . . . So, saw myself in belonging. And that's the theme that I still I'm sort of working with today is you know, when your classmates sort of oust you as the ginger, who is too studious, and who's the nerd. They assume that you don't play sports, they assume that you're not tough. They assume that it's an easy target. And I was it got pretty bad to where I remember one point I locked myself in my room and there's no lock doors that was ever allowed in the household. And that was always a thing. So when the door was locked, that was like a real big sign and my dad freaked out and actually broke through the door. And I was just crying listening to Bobby McFerrin, Don't worry be happy, just trying to like will myself and a happiness and you know, it took him about 1.2 seconds to just decide at that moment that he needed to put me into martial arts. And we were big fans of Chuck Norris and Steven Seagal, and john Claude Van Damme like that was our time is watching all the, you know, the karate movies and stuff. And so that really put me into a situation where I started to learn how to better communicate. And I and I really love martial arts, and I've trained martial arts my whole life. We tie kickboxing to MMA to grappling jujitsu, all that stuff. And I realized that you can't not communicate. And so I learned how to carry myself in a way that made me less of a target. And I eventually went from the nerd to the senior class president and I was I lived a double life between really scholastic top of the class, and then out there skateboarding and so, hanging out and playing hockey and doing what kids normally do.
Josh Steimle
So what does what does punching people or protecting yourself from people punching you have to do with good communication?
Ryan Foland
It's actually before any punching happens, and the way that you carry yourself. So you can have rolled forward shoulders, and you can physically look like you are an easy target. And by simply standing up correctly, with the shoulders back with your hands in a certain position, and even the eye contact in which you make it, you can communicate, you're not somebody who's willing to be messed with. And I'm actually very proud that with my martial arts training, I was actually able to avoid any type of physical content, or cut any type of physical contact, because I was very aware, like situationally aware, and I could understand situations before they would happen, I would make sure I didn't put myself into situations that were dangerous. And I was able to build a reputation for myself that like, Whoa, we shouldn't mess with this guy. Because he's not just going to run away and cry, he's going to actually use his words, use his body. And it's interesting how your childhood sort of ends up reflecting in your adult life. And I've been bullied plenty since my childhood, but it's come more in the form of business partners. And I've had a number of situations over my history where I think I'm too quick to trust people because of this deep-rooted sense that I feel like I want to belong. And so when I am with someone, and they're like, this is awesome, let's run with this, it's you and me together, then I think I default to this, like, Yeah, let's do this. And maybe I don't see the red flags, or I don't realize that I'm sort of being bullied by a business partner almost until it's too late. And I've had some very successful and catastrophic failures, one that actually landed me in a full-on investigation by the FTC, about eight years after I left the company. And that was when I had originally reported my business partner to the FTC eight years prior. And then it came back to bite me in the ass, but I had protected myself along the way. And I am here where I cannot say that my business partner has that type of freedom at this moment. So, I look at each situation in relationships as a chance to learn. But there is this deep-rooted want for belonging and too quick to trust. And I think that that's something that I'm still, you know, working on, I think we should all work on. But my childhood, it was it was great. Aside from all that, and just like in my adult life, you kind of work through it. But I grew up loving the ocean, and I still love sailing today. I grew up playing hockey, I'm not my knees are not as good as they were because I was a goaltender and martial arts I had to in my professional life, I had to do less because I'd come into work with just like, you know, scrapes and bruises and, and all kinds of like,
Josh Steimle
Looking like you're at a fight club or something.
Ryan Foland
Exactly. And I couldn't like Rory. Okay, I'm like, I'm fine. I had a great workout last night. So no, but you know that if my parents taught me anything - I'll make an analogy back to Catalina where I had to wear a life jacket until I could swim to the beach and back. And I think that in my adult life, I've learned how to swim. Because there's many times and people and things that have pulled me down to sink. And so I think that I look back and I'm not like, oh, I wish that never happened. I've used it as part of my brand. I invented one of the first ever anti-bullying apps for cyber bullying. I was a Southern California, Southern California regional manager for the bully project. I've done a lot of talks in high schools and elementary schools, I have my own bully forum. It's not as front and center now. But it's something that's close to my heart. And I think that there's a lot of people that get bullied as adults. And maybe I think the root of that is that they may not be being honest with themselves, or they're not ditching the act and being upfront with people they're working with. Or they just sort of think things are going to get better until a certain point where it just isn't better. And then you kind of deal with it. So the more I can help people be themselves and is understand along the way that the true you are yourself, the less, the less you're going to get beat up, the less you're going to deal with relationships gone wrong. And the more you can focus on what you enjoy doing.
Josh Steimle
So now in your not childhood life, but previous to the current life you have, you've been through some hard times as well, as I was reading on your website, you've went through some hard experiences. And I think a lot when we read books, business books by authors, we have a tendency to think, well, this person is just spouting some nonsense, they went and read an article and they think they know a bunch of stuff. Now they're writing about it. But then when you learn about somebody's background, and you learn that, oh, this person has paid their dues, they've been through hard things in life. It's kind of like you, they have more credibility, you feel like, well, they must know something, because they've been through hard stuff. Tell us a little bit about the hard things that you went through professionally and such, and how that's impacted things.
Ryan Foland
Yeah, and I'll, I'll start this with a question that I pose to a lot of people, which is, do you think people hire you for your expertise, or your experience? And I'll pose that question to you real quick, as a warm up. Do you think people hire you for your expertise? Or for your experience?
Josh Steimle
Well, if I were answering that, I'd probably say it depends on the person doing the hiring. But I would think in a lot of cases, it's the experience, because really, what they want to do is they want to get a job done. And if I have the experience of getting that job done in the past, then they would believe I can get the job done in the future. Whereas if I only have the expertise, I mean, that could just be a certificate or something that says I can do something. But where's the proof? The experiences the proof. That's how I answer that.
Ryan Foland
And I think that's a great answer. That's what I would assume is a correct answer, although they're hypothetical, so everybody's entitled their own opinion. But I think people intuitively think that if they can convince people that they're an expert, then they will get the business or they get the book deal, or they'll get on the podcast, or they'll get the clients. But in actuality, a lot of those people who say that they're experts, they're not sharing their experience. And that makes it sort of surface level, and there's maybe not as much trust, or you actually don't get to know them, which doesn't allow you to really make a decision whether you like them or not, and so you don't ultimately trust them. And so, yes, I've had a lot of a lot of downs. And it's because of those experiences that people end up seeing me as an expert. So I think the best thing you can do is share your experience and let other people see you as an expert, as opposed to saying you're an expert, and being timid about sharing those experiences that you've had. If I were to pull one off the shelf, because there are quite a few. You know, I initially thought in college that I was going to that I was I went in undeclared. And I ended up with two majors, one in Business Economics, and Dramatic Art theater. I'd never known about theater prior to, but I was I was stressed out when I initially got my first set of classes. So I had my parents choose them in orientation. One of them was a theater class, but I didn't even know it. The first day I just showed up to the building. And the teacher offered extra credit. I'm like, cool, I'm a big extra credit, you know, kind of like geek, and I didn't know what it was. But I had successfully flirted with the girl next to me first day of class. I was feeling good. And she's like, yeah, I'm gonna go, are you gonna go? I'm like, of course, I'm gonna go. So I went thinking that she would show up. And she didn't show up. And so I was kind of down and out. And some girl called my name and I thought it was her I'm like, Yeah, but, and it was somebody with a clipboard. And they called me in and they said, okay, here, read this sit down the chair. I was completely confused. So I read whatever it was, they laughed at me, I get so upset. I skateboard at home and, and I remember crying while skateboarding, which is not a normal thing. You're not normally crying on a skateboard. And what ended up happening was that it was an audition. And it was a remake of Sin City. And the character was Marv, the big crazy guy who would beat everybody up and be the, you know, like, the big physical character. And I didn't see the humor in the scene, because I didn't understand what's going on. But they did. So I ended up getting a part in this play of a student who got the part, you know, good job. Yeah, apparently why they're laughing. And I showed up and, and I had no idea like, this is my first theater experience ever. And it was such an incredible experience with the interaction of live dialogue and impact in live audience and I was able to bring my martial arts skills to the fight scene because they were all in their MBA classes. And they're like, oh, hit like this. making noise. I'm like, No, no, let's do this. I'm gonna flip you kick it. I brought in fake glass I brought in like you. I just was able to like explore this creative outlet. And I ended up acting, acting, acting Producing, producing, directing and taking over the whole student troupe. And every quarter we put on these, these really elaborate plays, but not musicals. They were like drugs, sex, rock and roll, heavy hitting kind of styles. And we got so popular on campus that we started to become a threat to a few places on campus. And I remember that there was beer found in the theater after one of our shows, which made sense because we would hide beers under the seats as a bonus for people. And I got called in and reprimanded and we were told that we were not able to, to, to basically produce any more plays, we were suspended as a group. And this is sort of a stitch of a lot of things in my life where maybe I push the envelope, and then I'm told not to do something. And then that's when I get creative. And so this was a situation where I had a whole team of actors and a whole campus that was like looking forward to these interesting shows. And so I applied to the College of Creative Studies at UCSB, a whole different college on the college. And I got into that college, and I took an art course. And my first painting, believe it or not, is actually right behind me. I took this art course for no credit. And it allowed me access to their old Little Theater. And so we put on another play under the nose of you, UCSB, the front page of the student newspaper before the weekend before our show debuted. And I get a phone call called into Richard Jenkins office, he slaps a paper down I'll never forget, and he just cut in front of everybody. What the xxxx are you doing? I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, I suspended you blah, blah, blah, I'm like, really? Well, I'm part of the College of Creative Studies. And that's their theater, and it really doesn't have a jurist, you don't have jurisdiction over that. So the show is going on. That triggered him to take me and the entire other leaders of this crew to campus court. And we were brought to court to potentially be kicked out of school because we had been so blatant about not following their rules. So what do we do? We came up with a whole argument around the fact that we were not a student group, we were actually Sherwoodplayers.com, we were a website, this was all brand new at the time. And so we had over 200 people in pink shirts, that were there to support us outside chanting and creating noise while we made our presentation, to not get thrown out of college, saying that we are a website, we're not even a school organization, you can't hold us accountable. And we're doing over here. So we won, we won this case. Well guess what our next show we put on in the main theater. And we protested our own show. So we put up signs for people to not come see the show, we had like rallies on campus to boycott this show. And then we even created fake campus police officers. And we planted fake drugs on people who are our actors in line and created a whole demonstration outside just to sort of like, you know, push the envelope a little bit more. But it was one of the greatest shows ever. And we actually, as a troop are still alive today, the Sherwood Players we've got a crazy award-winning documentary that's on Amazon Prime at this point. It's been around the world. It's award-winning; just exciting to see how when I'm told no, you can't do that, sort of when I start to get creative. And that I think is a good example of a challenge that I faced where I got creative and just kept, kept pushing, and then it continues on. So that's sort of a story off the shelf that not many people know. But it was an exciting time and Sherwood Players are still alive.
Josh Steimle
That's great. I did not know that you had this acting in your career, it adds more meaning to the Ditch The Act of title. So now you had kind of a rock bottom moment as well, with losing your car, in your house and all this stuff. Can you talk about that a bit? Are you willing to do so?
Ryan Foland
So you know, I was all hyped up ready to think that I was a great producer. And so I went to Hollywood. And I'm like, well, this was after applying to just about every single Master's program for film. And every single master's program for film said, No, you don't have a repertoire and a portfolio of video. And I'm like, but I've done all this live theater and they're like, we don't care. And so I didn't get into a Master's program, which is pretty defeating. So I went and I got an internship at ABC, David E. Kelly productions. I was on Boston Legal and the Practice and I was like a grunt and I was just in there and I was like, I'm gonna be a Hollywood actor. Well, it doesn't work like that. And everyone was like, you know, 30 years and maybe you'll have a creative choice. Well, I didn't believe him until I ran out of money. And I literally just went flat broke working for free. And a buddy of mine who was working in the mortgage industry. And at that time 2006 or 2007 it was popping. So they want to send me with no to low experience who is highly motivated. I'm like, that sounds like me. So I go to their two-week training, and I get set up on a team and they like give me you know, the one week, and they're like, close it, and you'll get another one. I had some great mentors, I learned how to sell by building relationships with the people on the other line. That's simple. That and drawing stick figure drawings and building relationships with the processor. So they process my files faster. I crushed it, I was making 1000s and 1000s of dollars a month. I remember I got a check for $17,000. And I was like, this is more money than I've ever seen in my life. And my parents were like, you should save it. So of course, I spent it. And I bought a house and I bought a red Range Rover with red rims. And I had a Mercedes SL 500. And I was just making money and spending money. And I got arrogant enough to think that I could start my own brokerage. So I went and got my broker's license. And then I came, I came back to the company. And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna take a month off and go to Costa Rica. They're like, okay, so I went, and I spent a month in Costa Rica, and I came back and all my stuff was in a box, like, yeah, we moved your position because you weren't here. And at that point, I was like, a chairman. So I was like, at the top of the company at the commission levels and everything. So I was like, you know what, I don't need you guys anymore. Give me that box. So I left and I and I started my own brokerage, I funded my first loan. And not a week later, it was 2008 when the entire market crashed. So I literally went from, everything was great to just the rest of the world that got cut off at the knees. And that really created that spiral, I started to drink more, I took out the 50 or $50,000 in student loans, that's now like approaching 80, or 90, because I still haven't really knocked them off. I was I was living a life that I didn't have the income to support. And my house went into foreclosure. And then I had a buddy move in to help counter the rent. And then he stole my Mercedes and disappeared. And then he got a DUI and got that car confiscated. And then I hid from the creditors for like another six, eight months until they found me and snatched my car out from under me. So I literally had nothing and the only thing I could figure out to do was file bankruptcy. And I didn't even have enough money to file for bankruptcy. So throughout this whole time, I was not ditching the act with my parents and not really being honest with them about how bad things were. And I had to get honest with them and say, look, this is what's happened. I'm going to have to move back home. And can I borrow some money to file bankruptcy. I was just sitting on a curb like miserably crying trying to even get that out. It's giving me the chills now thinking about it. But I decided to. I hired the cheapest attorney possible and which means that I had to file my own paperwork. And I'll never forget putting the envelope into the mailbox and just feeling the sense of relief but also like, you know, sorrow, agony, frustration, guilt, all that. And I was like, okay, we're gonna get better. I was getting organized to move into my parents’ house. And I checked the mail about two weeks later, and I saw the same package returned, I was like, holy crap, that's fast. Like I didn't know it was processed that fast. But I was actually 32 cents short on the postage. And ironically, 32 is my hockey number after Kelly Rudy, who was my idol as a kid. And I, I was just like, oh my gosh, like, it wasn't meant to be, I should not file bankruptcy, I can do this. I ripped it up right there in front, I felt guilty because it was all scraps on the ground. So, I picked it up, threw it away. And from that moment, I thought to myself, like the idea I'm like, in America, it's about pulling yourself up from the bootstraps, and I don't wear boots, more a sandals kind of guy. But I'm like, I'm going to figure this out. And so I actually ended up just saying, I'm going to get any job I can. And I started working in construction, believe it or not selling bathroom remodels. It was the worst thing ever to the ego. But I was able to use my drawing skills to help people visualize and I started selling bathrooms. And I got into construction and, and I hated it, but I still had to do it. And that was that was my bottom two on my way back up. Now there's been ups and downs since then. But so, again, there was just something in the world. My lack of attention to detail and stamps, that that helped me get creative, right? So again, if I look at it, there's pushing boundaries. There's so, sort of smacked in the face. There's an opportunity to be creative, and eventually just putting the work in to work myself out of it.
Josh Steimle
So how did this all add up? So you and I met in I think 2016. We met in Southern California. You invited me on your radio show there that was on the campus and that's when we first met in person. And at the time you were partners with Leonard Kim, and you guys a little bit later started this company Influencive. But what happened during that time that led up to hey, I'm going to write this book Ditch The Act. What was the inspiration for the book?
Ryan Foland
Yeah, I met Leonard at a kind of an exclusive networking event for entrepreneurs at Keith Ferrazzi's house. At the time I was working at UCI trying to get a break. I was teaching entrepreneurship; I was brought to UCI to start their first ever undergraduate entrepreneurship program of entrepreneurs because they're ant eaters. And I was trying to establish myself as a speaker. And I didn't have any speaking experience. So I learned quickly that I had to do something to create content. So I started a radio show. And I was formulating this 313 method that's still strong today. And I started trying to share my thought leadership. And part of that was just networking. So I had a friend who got invited to this exclusive party, and he ended up not being able to go and so he let me have the tickets. I wasn't even supposed to be there. I don't know if you know, Keith Razi, but he's,
Josh Steimle
For those who don't know, Keith Ferrazzi wrote Never Eat Alone. What are some the others?
Ryan Foland
Who's Got Your Back. And then his latest one is Lead Without Authority. I've got it here. I'm in the middle of reading it.
Josh Steimle
But he's a bestselling author. And he connects people, right?
Ryan Foland
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, Never Eat Alone is probably one of the best networking books that you can purchase. And I had read the book, I was a big fan. So I was like, all starstruck. quick story. He brought us in, like this super swanky, up in the Hollywood Hills, like six or seven different levels of coolest house ever brought everybody into this big main living room. And he said, okay, everybody, put your phones away, shut off all technology for a minute, I'm going to share something with you. And he proceeded to share something that was very personal, like not something that you'd think that some of you look up to is going to share with you. And after he shared that with everybody, everybody's like, oh, damn, like, he just, he just got real with us right there. And he's like, the feeling that you feel right now. That's us connecting together. And if you notice, it was something that I shared, that's not going right in my life. All of you have a lot of good things going on. But tonight, when you meet at dinner, you're gonna have a person at each of the tables, and they're gonna help prompt you to share what is not going right professionally. And personally, I don't want you to listen around the table. And if you hear that somebody has an issue that you can help. That's where you need to connect, because let's just assume everybody's doing fine. Everybody's got good stuff. And everybody's like, boom, like, whoa, this is crazy. So you grab a plate, and on the bottom of the plate is a number which corresponds to the table. And at that table, everybody went around with a little the docent, who basically said everybody go on their turn. I stood up the only Toastmaster in the room, obviously. So I stood up and I was like, my name is Ryan trying to be a speaker, but nobody will hire me trying to write nobody reads my stuff. And I've got this 313 thing that I want to get to the world, but I have no idea how to do it. Nobody else had their challenges. And this one guy stood up and said, well, I've got like 10 million reads on my content. Everybody wants me to be featured in their publication. I'm not that comfortable, public speaking. And my girlfriend just broke up with me. I sat down. I thought to myself, like every person, I'm intently listening to who could I help? I was like, I could help this guy, learn how to speak and get comfortable. I could show him how to possibly get a girlfriend. And I would love to learn how to get 10 million reads. And I'd love to learn how to have all these people asking me to speak. So I went up to him afterwards and I said: Hi, I'm Ryan, I think I can help you if you can help me. That was the beginning of it. The follow up didn't work out real well as it doesn't always, but I ran into him in Santa Monica about two weeks later. And then that sparked an actual meeting. And in true Leonard style, he said, Sure, I can help you out, but it's going to cost you it was over 1000 bucks that he asked for. And at this point, I was still scrapping. I was like, okay, I gotta commit. So I scratched him a check for I think it was 1300 bucks, which is like a huge chunk at that time. And he's like, okay, write down everything that you're doing right now. That's it. That's it. Do that and get back to me. I'm like, okay, like some weird Yoda trick, right? So I fill out everything I'm doing. He looks at He's like, well, good news is you're doing everything right. The bad news is you're doing it in the wrong order. And I was like, excuse me, it's like you're doing all the right stuff. But you're doing it in the wrong order. That's what I'm going to help you do. And that'll help build your personal brand. So one of the first things that is on the list is to actually have a website, I didn't have a website is to have a long form bio, I didn't have a bio. And Josh, you said you, you've known me for a while. But in reading my bio, you basically get you get all the you get all the good, the bad, and the ugly, you know, and so, we worked well together because we were so different. He was a writer, I was a speaker, and he was trying to launch a course. But he's not that great on camera, and he wanted somebody who was and he asked me if I wanted to partner in the course and the course was going to be outlining all the steps that I'd be going through and I'm like this is great. So we developed a course on how to build a personal brand and I was the test dummy. And what I did worked, and then I started getting verified on all the platforms. Then I started getting featured in publications. And then I started getting traction with my speaking. And it was about a four-year process that I built that core brand. And I went from zero presence to, you know, to 300 plus 1000 followers, nice credibility, and I was able to share my experience along the way. That was the hard part for me. Wait, I don't want to tell people I almost went bankrupt. No, no, I don't want to tell people that I got investigated by the FTC. No, no, I don't want to tell people about the fact that I didn't do this or that. And if you don't know Leonard, and you look him up, you will see most of his content is about him explaining all of the wrong things that happened in his life. And that resonates with people now. He's like, a level five, ditch the actor, and on his medium in Quora, like he gets deep and dark. And people resonate with that. Now, that's a little bit that was always too much for me. But I was able to find the balance of sharing my four-year backstory to let people see where I'm coming from. So they see the experience. And as part of this process, we were approached two different times. I think him initially and then us both. Secondly, would we be interested in writing a book
Josh Steimle
Publishers approached you?
Ryan Foland
Yes. Two different publishers. And, again, initially, I think it was through his channels, because he had a, you know, 10 million reads and a lot of traction. So it was an outbound, which is not always the case. So we've talked about it, we're like, Sure. So we proposed how to build a brand as a book. And they were like, that's not compelling. Sounds like every other book out there. There's no secret sauce. So we're willing to give you another chance. But you've got to come up with something unique. So we were like, okay, we actually hired somebody to help us write the book proposal. And I'm sure you talk with people about this, you don't have to write a book to get it purchased, was a big, big aha, you know,
Josh Steimle
You write additional wholesale book proposal, you do a query letter, and you say yes, to a publisher, or you hire an agent.
Ryan Foland
Exactly. So we hired an agent, yeah, we hired an agent, we hired somebody to help us tease out the book proposal, he flew in from somewhere in the United States. We actually contacted Keith Ferrazzi, this was like two or three years later, we said, Keith, we met at your house, and we're going to write a book, we wanted to know if we can do a full day of exploration with somebody that we hired to tease out the book in your house. And he went, sure, like, oh, my gosh, so we drove up to LA again, when he left, and we had an entire house to ourselves for an entire day of exploratory and teasing out all of our backstories and all this, you know, like, Kumbaya stuff that this consultant helped us tease out. And it was fascinating. And then we got into our agent, the final product, and we got McGraw Hill interested. And they said, we want to buy this book, and we're like, on top of the world, and they said, we will buy it for what ended up being about an eighth of what we thought we'd get for it. And we thought, this is easy, we hired this guy, we write a kick ass, you know, proposal, we get a purchase, they're gonna buy it for like $200,000. And then we can use that money to pay him because he's super expensive, and the rest of go to marketing, and we can just sit back and this will be great.
Josh Steimle
And instead, you're just trying to figure out how to pay that first guy.
Ryan Foland
100%. So the money that we got from the publisher was enough to basically cover the we cost of the consultant to get us there. And then we got stuck with writing our own book. Now I say stuck. And sure, like, you know what a jerk, you have this opportunity, you're still saying you're stuck, it was the best thing because we actually then learned how to write this book. And we had a good outline. Just a side tip, one of the best things, the best piece of advice that we got, was to first write many chapters, we basically outline the entire book, we're gonna tell this story and do this, and maybe research here an example. So we spent a lot of time on putting the whole book together as one big outline. And then we went through every night for three hours a night, and we just would work on Google Docs and Type and Type and Type. When you write a book, you really dig into the concept and the concept that was the magic sauce that we got picked up for, is this concept of ditching the act. Now we initially sold the book as expose yourself, believe it or not, then it was controversial. The idea is when you expose yourself like Keith Ferrazzi had done, like I started to do, like Leonard was good at, people are drawn to it, because they're like, they're sucked into these stories. And so, that's relatability.
Josh Steimle
Yeah, it's trust it.
Ryan Foland
It's relatability. And so we hinge the whole thing on if you want to build an authentic brand and learn how to share the things that you're not proud of that you're embarrassed about the silly little things that you do, and that can be the backbone of getting basically getting people to get to know you. And that was really the thread that we continue to pull. And that's what was. That was, that is what worked. For me. That's what worked for Leonard. Now, when you write a book with someone, it's very intense. I spent more time with Leonard during that time that I did with my fiancé. We got into multiple fights about content and about word choice and about different things. And some of that is natural. But towards the end, it got to a point where I think it was a bit unhealthy. And the process of me writing the book and getting so in tune with myself, and if you read the book, my story is, it's there. Like I basically spill all of my guts in the beginning to show what it looks like to ditch the act. And then we share why you should ditch the act with examples of people from all around the world in different types of life. And then we share with you exactly how to do it. And I realized that I was not ditching the act with him, or with myself. And I thought, oh, we're so far into this, you know, this partnership is going to work, it has to work. But after the book was published, the relationship got more and more toxic, there was not the positivity that was there before. And some of Leonard's personal choices of what he shared online, as the pandemic was hitting, made me realize that I needed to leave the company and the partnership and ultimately end the friendship, very hard decision. And I actually walked away from everything. I walked away from the company. I still have my half of royalties to the book, but I was not looking for drama. And there was a lot of drama.
Josh Steimle
So to take to take the analogy of the book, it sounds like you would have had to put on a mask and act in order to stay in that relationship. And you weren't willing to do that.
Ryan Foland
199%. And it gives me the chills right now. Because like, as a process of writing the book, it really helped me understand the importance of the message in the book, which reinforces the reason why my brand has been successful, or those elements of my brand that has had been the most successful is when I'm honest with myself. And I'm honest with the world. And so I just couldn't be honest with myself unless I was in a partnership that was that was truly positive and encouraging and supportive of each other. So it got really interesting, really fast, where I had a acclaimed, and I say claim because we got a number of different awards, including the Silver Medal of the Nautilus awards for the best business book of the year, we got over 83 different testimonial quotes, like I just I'm so proud of this book. But then I'm dealing with, I'm not proud of where the relationship went with my partner. It took a lot for me to leave was very expensive. And he did not make it an easy process. And I even as far as a couple weeks ago, still trying to get my likeness off of the company website. And one thing that I'll share about Ditching the act is the importance of not sharing in the moment. If you're in the moment of something that's really challenging, it's not necessarily fair to share. Because it's not fair to the audience, they don't know where the outcome is, they don't know what the resolution is, if you look at a story, Josh, there's a beginning a middle and end resolution, and there's things to learn. During this process, he was sharing in the moment, live streaming behavior that I didn't find acceptable. And, and it was almost an example of the example of what we said not to do in the book. And I just couldn't feel good. writing a book and supporting that type of behavior that went against it. So it's a, you know . . .
Josh Steimle
Now, is it that he was sharing in the moment? Or is it what he was sharing in the moment? Because you got like Gary Vaynerchuk who says document don't create and of course, Gary is out there sharing everything he's doing in real time.
Ryan Foland
Yeah, great, great distinction. So sharing in real time is fine, but it's when there's drama and things are unsettled and Anarchic things are up in the air and you're airing grievances and you're making unhealthy decisions. And you're So, putting yourself out there in a way that that makes people concerned for your safety. There were moments that he was sharing, which actually ended up in people calling to have him checked up on and So, at a certain point. You know, that actually. Yeah, it's I don't want to get into the details. But it's when you have conflict and you're sharing in real time. And so I was just trying to move on to a positive direction. So for Last year, I've not been name calling I've not been calling out I've not been talking about all the challenging things that have happened. But I'm getting to a point now where I feel like it's, I feel like I'm ready to now share the story and the lessons from it. And I feel stronger because of it. I feel more resolute in my own vision, mission values and goals. And I'm that much prouder of the book. what's prouder ironic, and this is something that, you know, Leonard actually, will probably, at a certain point, realize, in his life, and he talks about this in his TEDx talk, he realized that he was his example that he was showcasing in his life Well, before I met him, his grandpa told him something like you can always be an example, even if it's a bad example. And he talks about how he decided that what really turned the change for him and his branding was that he decided to say, this is what I've been doing. And I'm actually a bad example of what to do. And he, and he's talked about that a lot. So it's ironic that he helped write the book for sort of best practices on being authenticity. And he has since become an example, at least that I can point to, of some of the things not to do that will drive people away from you, I was close friends with them. We had a business together, we were making money, we wrote a book together. But he drove me away, he drove other people away, and his choice. And for some people, it draws it to them, and then that's fine. But be careful when you're sharing in the moment, things that are emotional, and that are intense, that are conflict driven, I can now share because I have a full story in a loop and where I can share in context of the learnings. And I think there's still stitches back to me being bullied sort of overlooking some red flags, and wanting to belong to something in a company that I built. But it's okay. The final thing I'll say is that now that I don't have Influencive as a company that I'm doing. And oftentimes, as entrepreneurs, and I've done this number of times, hey, Ryan, what's up with you Don't worry about me, it's this new company, this is what I'm doing. This is my, this is what my product is. And if that product fails, or you pivot to something else, then you have to reinvent yourself. With building a brand, I realized that my brand is who I am, regardless of what company I'm either owning or advising on or something like that. And so for me, building my personal brand and Lennar was helpful in understanding the order in which to do it, that I'm very thankful for him. But it is unfortunate, but I've, I've made the healthy choice for me to end that relationship and move on. And so I guess it makes for all a good story. At the end of the day, maybe so, might be fodder for a new book a few books down, and maybe you can help me tease that out.
Josh Steimle
Well, Ryan, for the audience, Ryan and I talked about this before we started recording, because I know Leonard too. And I met Leonard years, I actually met Leonard before I met Ryan, and it was through Leonard that I met Ryan. And so Leonard's a friend of mine, too, and but I thought, you know, this is a useful learning experience. Because writing a book with a co-author is like starting a business with a partner.
Ryan Foland
And sometimes getting into a relationship, it's really your relationship. Yeah. And sometimes things work out. And sometimes they don't work out. And I thought this would be really helpful for somebody out there who's thinking of bringing on a co author, or is in the middle of a relationship with a co author or is trying to figure out how to split from a co author. But there's some red flags here, there's some warning signs, there's some tips here on how to do things, how not to do things or what can happen. Because when you're starting a business, it's just, everything's gonna be great. When you start a book, everything's gonna be great. And then when things get tough, you realize, gee, maybe I don't really like working with this person, maybe it's this person's fault that things aren't going so well. Or maybe we just don't jive or something. And so I think this is a real raw look at that, that, you know, things might not work out. And that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a co author or a business partner. But it doesn't mean you should go in with your eyes wide open and you should examine things clearly. So if you're talking to somebody who's thinking about bringing on a co author, Ryan, what are some of the tips you would give them to say? Here's some things to think about before you jump into this relationship. I would ask them this question. Are you willing to have a baby with this person? And so, I say that in all seriousness, because I feel like that's I feel like Leonard and I had a child, okay. And the child has this book. And we have since gotten divorced. And I always felt it. Like it. You know, you know, people that get divorced, you know, people that have kids, you know how to have to co parent. And I've always thought like, gosh, that is just sounds so difficult to have like, just to have some living peace of being in the world, but not be together. And then the just the different like, for me, I've just always thought That's so crazy. And then that is exactly what I feel like has happened.
Josh Steimle
Yeah, you're splitting custody of your book.
Ryan Foland
Yep. But I love the book, I love this baby. But it also like is a challenge because I have no control over what he does with it. It's just as much his book as it is mine. And so the irony of the whole thing is that the biggest challenge in me building my brand, is, is has been being vulnerable and letting people understand that I'm not perfect. And then I'm not all these things, because I grew up thinking, you fake it till you make it like I had shiny cars, because that's what the business people that I was running with said to do. And like, there's certain images reality and all that has been myth busted. And so for me to be able to come out and share that this is happening. Like, I was always fearful of the optics. And it's like, but it's happening, and it actually feels good to share it. So why would you want to have a baby with this person? I think that's a really good question. Because look at this pandemic. I mean, we all have extra stresses on our life. Like, I'm not saying any of this is Leonard's fault, I'm saying that the relationship got to a point where I realized it was not healthy for me. And whether you have a business partner now or in the future, you have to, you have to understand that things are going to change, people change. So do you want to have a baby with this person? That's number one. The other is, what do you want to do with the book? And I think you're I'm sure you'll you talk or a dress that but like, once you have a book and you have a stack of 50 of them, and then you're like, wow, it's here, then you're like, why isn't it selling?
Josh Steimle
Well, yeah.
Ryan Foland
Why are people not buying the book? And so it's such a, it's, it's, it's really hard to sell books right now. I'm not saying I'm not saying don't write a book, and the book on its own as a brand builder, all these things, but what do you want to do with the book, I wanted to speak professionally, and charge $20,000, a keynote and I was on that track, and I landed a couple and then the pandemic hit.
Josh Steimle
And so you know, they're in speakers all of a sudden . . .
Ryan Foland
So do you want to have a baby with this person? And what do you truly want to do with a book. And if you are writing a book of the business partner, you have to know you. I would always say like, play out the options, just play to yourself, what if we published this book, and then we broke up? That goes through that thought process? I don't think I went through that thought process initially. And when I realized that something was really going wrong, it was too late. We had signed the contract, we needed to deliver it to the publisher. And so I remember for the last rush and push of this book, it was it was it was very challenging. So will I have another co author? Probably not. That's me personally, because I've gone through it. So I've learned through that experience. Should you have a co author, it made the writing a lot easier. Linares way stronger of a writer than I am. So if it was just me, this book wouldn't be as strong. That's what I'd say. Do you want to have a baby? And what do you actually want to do with it?
Josh Steimle
So now, you said that you did sell 100 books last week? So what are you doing to sell it now?
Ryan Foland
So I'll through speaking engagements, that's really the only traction that I found. So I'm doing a an entrepreneurial show.
Josh Steimle
How are you doing speaking engagements during lockdown?
Ryan Foland
Oh, virtual. You know, I think that once lockdown happened, I actually doubled down on creating content. Created ginger snips showing myself on stage all the time, outbound a lot of inbound. And I've been I've been landing quite a few I actually just spoke in Ireland the other day. I've spoken in the Caribbean, and Haiti. All So, of this, because I just haven't changed what I've been doing. I've just been saying it's just a change delivery. And if somebody doesn't want to pay the fee that I charge, then I'll say, well, next step is you buy a book for everyone there. And if that doesn't work, then it's like the next level. How can I get added value from that? Well, if you're not going to pay me you're not going to buy books. I need the email address and permission to email them. And if it's if it's not that it's probably not going to make sense.
The biggest chunk that I've sold is through speaking gigs. And now that I have a book, which I didn't have before, I'm able to use that as one more leverage one more tool to sell them
Josh Steimle
A question, when you sell books in bulk to an event organizer, do you ship the books to them? Or do you tell them, hey, go on Amazon and buy 100 books, and then I'll do this speaking gig,
Ryan Foland
The different action options seen none of the above. McGraw Hill has a whole fulfillment center. So it's super easy, and I just connect them with them. And based on the amount that they're buying, that's the discount that they get. It's out of my hands, I don't do any shipping. Now, I will say that I always have 50 books on hand. There's, there's probably 47 right here. So I always have 50 books on hand, so that in a pinch, if it's a smaller event, I'll cut them a deal. And I'll work with them directly that I can like either bring them to, because shipping 50 books is like cuts all your profits, they're gone. Yeah, so I like to have the actual publisher facilitate it. And for me, I feel like that's a whole other level of professionalism is like, no, you're not just gonna buy books from me. I'm gonna connect you with McGraw Hill, and they'll take it from here. Cool.
Josh Steimle
So what's the future then with Ditch The Act? Where are you taking it? Where are things going?
Ryan Foland
I think it's always going to be a part of how I'm sharing what I think works best and building a brand. And that's sharing more than just the good. I've got a couple killer keynotes around it. Every time I do a keynote, it's very customized. I will also mention that there are 70 stick figure drawings in the book, which I'm very excited about. And all of my keynotes are hand drawn. So I think I'll continue to get traction more so than ever right now. Because people are forced to understand the importance of a digital footprint. They are confused as to what to share online. And I think if you look at some of the most successful personal brands, I mean, you ditch the act all over the place, like you're very honest and upfront with your story. And I've seen you speak all over. And that's a big part of it. It's ingrained in what you're doing. But there are still people who think that only showcasing the shiny good stuff is the way to connect. But I will continue to tell people that people don't care about your story of success. They care about how they see themselves in your story. And if your bio doesn't showcase that you're human, or share what went wrong, is not showcasing your expertise. It's not going to support from your experience. And so I'm going to keep riding this horse until the wheels fall off. I want this book to be the modern day, how to influence friends and how to how to influence people win friends, Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People.
Ryan Foland
I think this is a modern day, Dale Carnegie book where it really just gets at being more human. So this has a long shelf life, it will continue to go at least I'm going to be continuing to push it. I do have a whole series of books that I believe I'll be publishing next happy to talk with you about it. But they're going to be stick figure books, they're going to be focused on some So, core concepts that I'm passionate about. But through stick figure format,
Josh Steimle
and tell us for the audience, the people who don't know you tell us a little bit more about your history with stick figures.
Ryan Foland
Well, I've always drawn and I've always been passionate about finding like my own stick figure people. My design one in high school for the senior class shirt. I use stick figures when in my mortgage business to build relationships with processors, I draw stick figures on the front that had to do with what they liked, things would get processed faster. And it's always been a part of who I am. But as part of my brand, I've been showcasing stick figures. Since 2015, I didn't know how I was going to get on Instagram, I didn't know what to share. And I was at a Tony Robbins event. And he challenged me to do something every day that doesn't take more than 10 to 15 minutes. And that was for me to draw a stick figure every day. So I'm five years later, every platform every day, I share a stick figure which now have masks on to be socially distant. But I also illustrated this book two or three other books. And there's just something powerful about stick figures, I think we can all relate to them. And so stick figures for public speaking stick figures for building your brand stick figures for productivity stick figures for soft skills, I see almost like a like a, you know, a dummies for version, but in stick figure format. And I turned 40 this year. But I had to cancel my big exciting party because a COVID. So I channeled my energy into a pandemic project. And I launched stick figure dot store. It's all for charity. And so now I have this sort of new fun passion project of bringing awareness around the stick figures to raise money for causes that I that I'm excited about. So if you can find something that you enjoy doing, that also creates content that ties in with your brand. It's like the sweet spot of like actually enjoying doing the work that you do and I love drawing stick figures and creating a visual to different ideas. From my PowerPoint slides to images in a book to stick figures on Instagram.
Josh Steimle
Awesome. Now I want to back up just a little bit. I know this sounds like we're wrapping things up. But before we do that, tell us about working with McGraw Hill with your publisher and what that experience was like, because some people have positive experiences, some people have kind of mediocre experiences, what was it? Like? What did you learn from that publishing experience?
Ryan Foland
So overall, it was positive. Our editor was great, the communication was good. But what I don't think people realize is that is the amount of work you still have to do. Even though you have an editor, we wrote the book. And we hired an editor to help us edit our work. And we hired somebody else to help edit that person's work. And the way that we delivered to the publisher was almost perfect, to which then they could come back with their edits, that we would re edit and run through our two consultants as well. The publisher’s job is to put polish on what you're doing. They're not there to basically work through every chapter and give you feedback every single time.
Josh Steimle
They're not there to fix your mess.
Ryan Foland
No, no, no. And, and I didn't realize that. Also, they are not there to sell your book. They are there to place it into Barnes and Noble, if that's the case, but they're not throwing marketing dollars behind it. Right?
People don't realize that the marketing of the book falls solely on the author. And however much you want to think that McGraw Hill is this big Titan that's going to help you sell books. Now, there are a big Titan, and there's a great credibility that comes along with it. And that was part of the reason we want to go with traditional publishing. But you better you better expect to deliver that thing as polished as possible. Because that's, that's what they want to do. They just want to look at it, give you some insights and go from there. I will also go back to this idea of a of a book proposal, I really thought that you had to write a book to be bought, your agent will present a book proposal that, that they're going to read maybe the whole thing. And there's a specific format and different ideologies on how to do that. But they basically buy an outline of the book, and then is your responsibility to actually write the book. And so I thought we get a lot more support in that writing process. But it was more so like, we bought the concept, send me chapters one through five when you're done with them. And it's like, oh, wait, what? Oh, crap. And so we actually hired two different consultants to help polish along the way which, which was instrumental. Having helped writing your book is instrumental because just like you don't see your keys, even though they're right in front of you, you don't see phrases and words and things from an editing standpoint, you don't see some of the conceptual stuff. And then where they were helpful is in some of the things that you know, you have to get done. Like the title or like the book cover and the title after they bought the book. They're like, Yeah, we got to change the title, like, Oh, crap. And then once we were working on the title, design, their title, their cover design, I'm sorry, was not impressive. Like it was like they just outsource it to somebody who came up with an idea. We got really involved. And if you're listening, you can't see this. But we actually created this design that has like stick feet, or I'm sorry, that has like post it notes that have been ripped open. So there's this 3d effect. And on each of the posts notes, it says like happiness, success, and they're like ripped in half. And so we wanted to like pop to like jump out on the shelf. And we went back and forth so many times to get what we wanted. I was amazed at how I think the publisher looked at is I can't let's get this off the list. And we're like, no, this this is really, really important to us. And the final thing I'll say is that if you ever negotiate a contract, by golly, gosh, make sure it's something about an audio book that you are able to be the voice of Josh, I was so upset when I found out that when it came because audiobook was part of it, right? But when I was told that we had to hire professional voice actor to do it, I was not cool with it. And whenever like I'm a professional voice actor,
Josh Steimle
I know when I'm done. I can read this.
Ryan Foland
This is going to make this book come alive. I listen to audiobooks all the time. And when it's somebody else reading it, it's not as great as Gary Vaynerchuk written his own book. And so I was so upset. I actually almost like almost risked my entire relationship with my editor and McGraw Hill going up the chain saying not acceptable. I want to be able to have the right to do it. And it didn't work. We had to hire somebody else because that all had to be negotiated ahead of time and the options that they gave us We're all old white men. Okay. And so I was like, no, we're not going to have some 65-year-old reading a book about like modern, modern social media and how to put yourself out there online. Like it just, it just doesn't connect.
And so my only saving grace is that I said, look, if you're not going to let us do it, then we want a female to read it. Because we don't want anyone to think that this voice is ours. And we want to incorporate a female voice and have more gender equality, because it's two dudes writing a book. So I felt good about having a female voice. But again, that was just a really frustrating part of the process.
Josh Steimle
That is tough. This is great advice. So this is great for aspiring authors who just have no clue what they're going to get into as a first time author.
Ryan Foland
And if I was just saying it was peachy and rosy, and everything was great, because I want you to think that that I'm a published author, and everything's fine, then then the real learning wouldn't be there. And that's an example of like, actually ditching the act to say like, yeah, it was, it was actually there's some real challenges with it. So that's an example of like, actually connecting with people, I don't think you judge me. And I don't think anybody else judges me for what happened in that process. But I think you and your listeners appreciate opening up about it. So don't be afraid to just continue to open up. And it may feel a little bit like nerve racking. Because you want to make everybody think it was an amazing process. But like, it was not easy. The three years, Josh, from the original concept of us being willing to write a book, to it being published three freaking years about.
It took about the same amount of time as I've known you. So yeah, but that's what people say is that when you go traditional publishing, expect it to take a one first-time to two years longer than you think it's going to take, you write the book in the air in a year, and then you wait a year or two for it to get published. So your experience fits right in line with that.
But I'm proud of my baby, it's okay. And you know, co-parent, I'll do the best that I can to make the relationship work in a in the most decent way possible. But I feel like I'm definitely a single parent on this one.
Josh Steimle
Well, thank you so much, Ryan, for spending this time and giving us these insights into your book, Ditch The Act, once again, where's the best place to get a hold of you and learn what you're all about.
Ryan Foland
So my website and an easy way to find me is just go to Ryan dot online. Think of Ryan, I forget my last name for a moment, but a dot and then put online and that's, that'll bring it to my main website. I also have two podcasts if you're interested. One is where I work people through my 313 process, which is a lot of fun. And you can go to Ryan dot online, forward slash 313 challenge. And my world of speakers podcast, we're at 82 episodes where I processes bring on speakers who I respect and we talk about the business and practice of speaking. And you can find that at Ryan dot online forge slash capital Ws or just Google my name at all pop up. But if you'd like to stick figures, you can follow me on Twitter and if you want daily slices of life, I'm definitely more into giving those posts writing a book sharing who I am and what I'm thinking.
Josh Steimle
Alright, thank you so much, Ryan, for all the value you've given us today. This has been awesome. And I'm sure listeners are loving listening to this. Thank you so much. You're welcome, Josh.
Ryan Foland
Thanks for all you do. Appreciate it.
