Author Shares Her Journey Writing Unschooled
It’s essential that entrepreneurs understand the pros and cons of publishing vs self-publishing, and how agents and publishing companies work when an entrepreneur is ready to publish a book.
In this episode of the Published Author podcast, Kerry McDonald, author of Unschooled: Raising Curious, Well-Educated Children Outside the Conventional Classroom, explains that the choice a writer makes will depend on their timelines and end goals.
Unschooled and Kerry’s first book, Your Unique Wedding, were published by traditional publishers. But she self-published Choosing Home, an edited anthology of essays by moms who decided to be stay-at-home parents. And her next series of books—part of her new teachcapitalism.com project—will be self-published, too.
TOP TAKEAWAY: UNDERSTANDING PUBLISHING VS SELF-PUBLISHING
Getting her teachcapitalism.com project books out quickly is Kerry’s priority, and she says self-publishing is the best way to accomplish this goal. (If this part interests you, check out Episode 0004 with Connor Boyack, talking about his Tuttle Twins series).
“I want to have a lot of books, and to be able to have that quantity and have them out for people. In this case, self-publishing is the right way to go to build up that particular website.”
With traditional publishing, it can take up to two years for a writer’s book to appear on Amazon and in bookstores.
“Typically, it takes about a year, unless you’re sort of a celebrity, or something is timely in the news,” notes Kerry. “But for most of us, it takes about a year from submitting your finished manuscript to the publisher, to having your book on the shelves.”
When writers opt for a traditional publisher, they usually need an agent to connect them with a respected publishing house. A publishing house can add credibility and will really help with distribution. Traditional publishers also give some help with publicity, tours, and PR.
However, this route may result in a writer losing control over their book’s final title and cover design, which can be hard for some authors to swallow.
A WRITER’S JOURNEY
Kerry also discusses what motivates her to write. With Unschooled, the book began as a series of blog posts about homeschooling after the birth of her first child. As she became more of an expert on the subject, she decided to put her ideas into a book for parents and educators.
With the teachcapitalism.com project, Kerry thinks that capitalism’s successes are sometimes maligned, and that parents want to offer alternatives to their children.
“Parents are looking for more of these tools, particularly parents of young children, that can help them to offer different viewpoints around economic progress and prosperity than their kids may be getting elsewhere,” she explains.
Kerry and host Josh Steimle also explore other important topics for writers, including how to build a portfolio, and the power of a well written proposal, and why it’s important to begin writing when you are young.
If you appreciated this episode, listen to
Mortgage Banker In Awe Of Power Of Books Sets Up Publishing Company
Chris Ducker: For Entrepreneurs Self-Publishing Is The Way To Go
LINKS
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Josh:
Welcome to the Published Author Podcast, where we help entrepreneurs learn how to write a book and then leverage it to grow their business and make an impact. I'm your host, Josh Steimle I'm here today with Kerry McDonald, welcome Kerry. Glad to have you on board.
Kerry:
Oh, it's great to be with you, Josh. Thanks for having me.
Josh:
So Kerry has a master's degree in education policy from Harvard university. She's the author of Unschooled: Raising Curious, Well-Educated Children Outside the Conventional Classroom. And she writes for a bunch of publications. Her articles have appeared in Forbes, the Wall Street Journal, NPR, Newsweek, Reason Magazine, and the Journal of School Choice among others.
She's a senior education fellow at the Foundation for Economic Education-also known as F.E.E. or FEE-and an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute. She lives in Cambridge, Massachusetts with her husband and four children. So, we're going to talk with Kerry today about the books she has written, including her new book series coming out later this year that accompanies her new project at teachcapitalism.com.
But first Kerry, give us a little bit of background. Where'd you grow up? What was your upbringing like? And what did you want to be when you grew up?
Kerry:
Right. So, I grew up in the suburbs of Boston, attended public school, but always loved to write and always thought it would be neat someday to write a book.
Then I went to college. I was an economics major as an undergraduate, but I became increasingly interested in education policy. I got my first glimpse at alternative forms of education and homeschooling when I was in college and had some opportunities to do some research on non-traditional forms of education and was able to shadow a homeschooling family at the time.
And that sort of stuck in the back of my mind, and then I went to graduate school and education policy became much more interested in education choice and education, expanding education options for more families, then fast forward about a decade later, with my own family, my own children, thinking about education options for them. That's when I kind of revisited homeschooling started unschooling my kids and ultimately writing the Unschooled book that you mentioned earlier.
Josh:
Yeah. Now you wrote some other books first, before you wrote Unschooled, which is what you're best known for right now. Tell us a little bit about the other books that you wrote
Kerry:
So back in 2005, I published my first book. It was a book about creative wedding ideas and creative wedding planning - Your Unique Wedding. This was soon after my husband and I had a destination wedding to Hawaii and realized that there weren't a lot of books on the market for people wanting to do something a little bit different for their wedding, things like surprise weddings or adventure weddings, elopements, planned elopements, destination weddings, all kinds of things. Theme weddings. And so I thought it would be at that time really interesting to write a book that kind of covered all of these things. And I didn't know anything about book publishing at the time, other than I wanted to write a book. And I thought that there was a need for this kind of book. I think since then there has been a proliferation of books in this category, but at the time it was sort of green pasture.
And so I did what I think most people do when they decide they want to write a book. I started to figure out, how does one go about that? And this was really, I think pre self publishing. So it didn't occur to me to go that route. So I actually picked up The Complete Idiot's Guide to Getting Published.
So I don't know if you and your listeners know about The Complete Idiot's Guide series, but there's all kinds of topics and this was about getting published and I read through the entire thing and followed it to a T and it works. So starting with figuring out how to get a literary agent, because typically for most of us, if we want to publish with a mainstream publisher, we would have to go through a literary agent.
And so I figured out how to write a query letter and how to find agents that would be in this realm of in this case, wedding planning. So I found the agent and then the agent then shopped around my proposal, and I ended up getting a book deal with career press new page books, and that book, Your Unique Wedding came out in 2005.
So that was my first foray into book publishing. Then I fast forward to about 2013. I self-published a book called Choosing Home, which was an edited anthology of essays from moms who decided to stay home and be stay home parents to their children, And maybe hold off on going back into the workforce or forego careers altogether.
So that was interesting doing that just through Amazon and then my book Unschooled, I went with a different literary agent, but followed the same path again, writing that lengthy proposal and having that agent shop around that book and the unschooled book came out in 2019.
Josh:
That’s great. I want to dive into this whole process of finding an agent and working with these publishers a little bit later.
Are you glad that you wrote the other books first and had that experience before writing Unschooled and before working on the next set of projects that you have coming up?
Kerry:
Absolutely. I mean, in some ways it was so rewarding just to be able to pick up this guidebook and then see that it actually worked.
You know that there is a process to this. What seems I think can seem very intimidating or, you know, a world or an industry that's somewhat mysterious. And I think that it was just really rewarding to see that there is a plan. There are some steps you can take as an author to build yourself up for success, to get an agent that you want, who is going to be the best person or agency to be able to shop your book around to the best publisher at the best advance that you can receive for that book. So, absolutely it was a very fulfilling experience and then made it that much easier and more straightforward. When I ultimately decided to publish the Unschooled book, I kind of already knew the terrain. I already knew what was expected. And of course, all of this information now and your site certainly is helpful in this too, but so much of the information that was in that.
You know, The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Getting Published is now online too. So, I think it also makes it easier for publishers, for authors to think of all the different ways of getting published and to decide between self publishing or industry publishing, you know mainstream publishing or a combination of the two.
Josh:
So, when it came time to write Unschooled, what was the primary motivation there? You said it was when you started having children and you were thinking about their education, but what's the whole story behind that book because books require a lot of work. it's not the type of thing that somebody just says, “Oh, I feel like writing a book might as well.” I mean, you knew this was a big commitment going into that. So, what was the whole story there?
Kerry:
So when, when I first became a mom, my oldest daughter was born in 2006. Blogging was kind of coming on the scene and was sort of Avant Garde at the time. And so I started keeping a blog and talking about parenting and education homeschooling.
And then, as I had more children and got more in depth into homeschooling and Theory of unschooling and self-directed education. I think like any writer, you start to think, well, how could I put these ideas into a book? What would be useful to other families, other parents thinking about education and in this case, self-directed education for their kids.
So it started from there. And then also, blogging turned into writing for different other media outlets. Like you mentioned, Forbes and some other, Some other groups. So just kind of building up my writing portfolio and authority sort of in this space. So becoming an expert in this particular topic, and that's what made it ultimately A little bit simpler to find an agent that worked in this space.
So it was a different agent. I know we'll get into it a little bit later, but someone who was really much more focused on this topic who understood it, who had published books in this, in this area before. So I went with that agent for this book and then she was able to find a home for Unschooled within, I think it was Like four or five weeks after, polishing up the proposal with her and then and then having Chicago Review Press purchase it. So, that it's really about, for me, it was really about taking all of those ideas that I had accumulated over the years from the early days of blogging to then writing articles and speaking more about this topic and then building it into a book and, and the book itself not only goes into this theory and practice of unschooling and self-directed education, but also really spotlights a lot of education entrepreneurs who were building creating self-directed learning centers or resource centers for homeschooling, other kinds of spaces that facilitated this kind of education. And I was really excited to share their stories as well.
And that was a big motivator in terms of thinking about constructing the book.
Josh:
Great. So. Tell us about your upcoming book series, then this new project at teachcapitalism.com that you're starting.
Kerry:
Yeah, so you mentioned that I work for the Foundation for Economic Education. The country's oldest free-market think tank. And I feel like there's a lot of need for more resources for young people, for kids in particular, that Explain the principles of a free market, explain capitalism and how it has been the greatest generator of personal and economic freedom, progress and prosperity that the world has ever known. And that we should be celebrating this and sharing this with our children at a time where I think capitalism is, unfortunately, so often maligned and I think parents are looking for more of these tools particularly parents of young children, that can help them to express some of these ideas and, Maybe offer different viewpoints around economic progress and prosperity than their kids may be getting elsewhere. When they may be hearing that, capitalism is not the elsewhere. When best approach and maybe socialism is better. And I felt like it was important to give parents more tools for sharing these important ideas about free market capitalism.
Josh:
Now we're both friends with Connor Boyack and of course he has his Tuttle Twins series.
That's out there that teaches about capitalism and libertarianism within this children's book series. Is it in any way comparable to that or is it something completely new?
Kerry:
Yeah, I mean, Tuttle Twins is like the gold standard right, and I just think that Connor's work is incredible. I know he has a new Video series television animated series coming out based on Tuttle Twins, that was just written up recently in Newsweek.
So he's just doing some incredible work. And I just think that there is more room for those kinds of tools. You know, I have the book that will be coming out sooner rather than later is really like a children's picture book for even younger kids. And then even the Tuttle Twins Series, which is focused more on older children. So, kind of looking at where there might be some gaps, as well as, helping parents figure out how to communicate these ideas a little more with their kids. How can parents Have the language to explain these principles in a way that young children can understand? So, I'm hoping to provide those kinds of parent resources as well.
Josh:
And you're ready for all the pushback from all the people who say that children should not be taught about capitalism and socialism. And they're too young for all that.
Kerry:
Well, I think, one of the catalysts for writing, this first children's picture book that would be coming out soon is there is a book called A is for Activist, which is a wildly popular, children's picture book. And a lot of it, I think is excellent. A lot of it, I agree with, but there are definitely anti-capitalist tones in it, talking about corporate vultures. For example, in some of the pages, and this is a book, I discovered it in my local library, it's popular in schools across the country and has been written up in mainstream publications and has gotten a lot of press and it's incredibly popular. There are a lot of books like this and more and more coming every day that really champion in this case, socialism socialist values, collectivism, identity politics, and those kinds of things. And there's just not the same, amount or quality of Books on the other side. And so, I think for parents, you should just be able to provide your children with all kinds of different perspectives and you should also be able to gather resources and tools that reflect your worldview. So, the more ideas we can get out there, the more books that we can offer that present kind of a robust picture of different viewpoints, different political opinions, different worldviews. I think that's Better for families, for children and for our society.
Josh:
Talking a little bit more about the process of being an author or what it's like to be an author. One of the things that you mentioned that stood out was that you had this platform that you've built over the past few years with. Writing for Forbes writing for other publications, building up a following. How much of a difference has that made for getting the word out there? About your book?
Kerry:
Yeah, a couple of things. I think, first it gave me the confidence to move from blogging to another medium. And so, I started with. Staying in sort of the same realm of my blog. So, I started writing for, green child magazine and natural mother magazine and those kinds of outlets that were really saying much of the same thing that I was writing on in my blog, but kind of built up my portfolio and built up my expertise in particular areas.
And then I was able to, at one point, pitch to Forbes, this was at a time when Forbes was accepting freelance articles. Now you have to be invited to be a contributor. And I was actually able to be invited to be a regular contributor last year, but prior to that, as a couple of years ago, several years ago, now, when they were accepting freelance pitches for articles. And so I just sent them an article out of the blue, figuring that I would never hear from them and sure enough, they took it. And that's one of the pieces of advice that I give to aspiring writers or expert writers all the time is, aim high, right? Like you can always start by looking at the different media outlets that accept, pitches that accept article proposals, article ideas, and then just see if you don't hear back, you move on to the next one, but yeah. Start at the top and keep working your way down. And if you persevere, I think one of them will hit and then once you build up enough of these spots on your portfolio, it gets that much easier to publish elsewhere. If that's the route that you want to go in and then can also help build up, your bio when you're pitching to literary agents or to publishers that you are a recognized expert in this particular field.
Josh:
Let's talk a little bit more about that agent that you've mentioned. For a lot of people, especially today with self-publishing being so easy, a lot of people are questioning, why should I go with a traditional publisher? And then most people don't even know that you need to get an agent in order to get that traditional publisher. So, first question, what are the pros and cons of going with a traditional publisher? And then let's talk about how you get in with a traditional publisher using an agent.
Kerry:
Right. And so I'll just share from my experience, I'm definitely not an expert in getting published through mainstream publishers or self publishing, but I can just share my experiences. So, I think the pros and cons are, if you go with an agent who can get you into, back to the publishing house, either a larger mid-size publisher, you have that kind of stamp of approval that I would side credibility, that this is a book that, has been vetted that you've, you've really, gone through this process and had, various publishers take a peek. And then this one was the highest bidder and ultimately took it. So, it adds that layer I think of credibility. It also can help with distribution. Although I know that now there are so many different ways to self publish that can also help get your books into bookstores, but, traditional publishers You know, we'll get your book into hard copy in bookstores and, and do handle a full distribution for you. And they'll also help with PR and marketing. So it's sort of a full-service experience. The downside though, is that it takes a while. So typically, it takes about a year unless you're Sort of a celebrity or something is timely in the news, but for most of us, it takes about a year from submitting your finished manuscript to the publisher to having your book on the shelf.
Josh:
Is that how long it took for Unschooled?
Kerry:
Both of the books that I published with traditional publishers, it took a year from the time that I submitted and it's because that's how they buy their books is my understanding. So, they buy books, knowing what their catalog is going to be for a specific time. And they're buying books typically a year and a half to two years out. So, when they sign the contract with you, ultimately when it's on the shelves could be a year and a half to two years, depending on how long you've said that it will take you to write the book. So that's a long time. And I think, especially in today's world where we Expect information and content so much quicker and so much more accurate, right. Because a lot can happen in a year.
Josh:
Yeah. Like a global pandemic or something.
Kerry:
Yeah. So, I think that that's why self publishing has really become, So popular as it should. And I think there's also, there's gatekeepers with traditional publishers and with self publishing, there are no gatekeepers. I mean, there are some things Amazon, for example, may not may or may not decide to publish, but that's generally few and far between and you can usually publish on content that might be hard to get through a traditional publisher. So, I think that self publishing really, you know, is the way to go, especially if you want to get things out quickly. And if you want to build up your brand and all sorts of, strategies like that,
Josh:
What assistance did the publisher give you in terms of marketing and PR? Because with my first book, I went through a traditional publisher as well, and they issued a press release and that was it. So I'm curious what your experience was working on the marketing angle with your publisher?
Kerry:
Yeah. So the first book and I mean, it could, these were totally different books, obviously the wedding planning book and then an education book, and different publishers, but the first book, the publisher Worked with an outside PR firm. So I had that PR firm connecting me with radio spots and various opportunities to do. I had a television interview. I had an article placement. Mentions of the book in various periodicals. And so in that case, it was kind of outsourced with a PR firm. With Unschooled, there was more of what you're talking about, more of the releases and sending to different media Contacts that the publisher knew typically covered these kinds of books, but for the most part with Unschooled, it was really much more my doing. I mean the publisher or the PR and marketing really fell more on me and my contacts and the kind of reputation that I had built up. So I think, and again, these were mid-sized publishers that I worked with. I think if you're working with a top, traditional publishing house, it could be very different, you could get much more hand-holding there
Josh:
Now you kind of got lucky because, well, I mean, I don't want to say lucky when it comes to a global pandemic, but your book was kind of perfect timing in a sense, because it came out, people are already interested in homeschooling, but then with this pandemic, everybody was forced into homeschooling. And suddenly you have [millions of families who are saying, “wait a second, I don't know how to do this. What am I doing here?” And you have all these other families who are saying, “yeah, we're thinking about this. Well, Now We have to do it, and we're diving in.” Did you see that impact book sales and engagement for your book?
Kerry:
Absolutely. Yeah. So the book came out in may of 2019, so for a whole year before the pandemic kit and it did fine, it made up its advance. And then I got my first royalty check on top of it. So it was doing well, but like with most published books, you sort of think after about a year, it sort of loses its luster and maybe you'll get some more royalty checks if you're lucky, but you've sort of missed that initial, that initial push now you're right. When the pandemic hit, all of a sudden homeschooling was front and center. And because I had kind of built up this brand around homeschooling and alternative education and the think tanks that I work with, I was able to get a lot of PR spots just from that. So I was on Fox news and I wrote different articles. I was on ABC news out of California, Los Angeles. So those were opportunities. To build up more mentions of the Unschooled book, which ultimately led to more sales. I just got another royalty check last week, and it was sort of through this pandemic time. And you could see that the sales had jumped, as so many parents, even if they didn't decide to kind of continue with independent homeschooling. We're looking for ideas and resources of how to manage this unforeseen time at home with their kids and how to sort of approach learning as a family. And so, there's definitely a boost in sales
Josh:
Now the average self-published book sells about 250 copies during its lifetime, And the average traditionally published book sells around 3000 copies. Maybe you're not comfortable sharing the exact sales details where maybe you don't have them, but can you tell us a little bit about how your book has done compared to those averages?
Kerry:
I'm sorry, what did you say per traditional?
Josh:
About 3000.
Kerry:
Yeah. So it's, I sold more than that. I don't remember exactly. Maybe double that. I'm not entirely sure. I need to look at my statement. but it has, it has done well. And I think, again, a lot of that came. Later than, would typically be true. You know, I think most sales of most traditionally published books they'll probably come within the first six months after the book comes out. And so it was lucky in this sense for me, that this was still a timely topic and something that parents were really looking for.
Josh:
Yep. And I've read it myself, Unschooled it's right here. In my opinion, my wife and I, we also homeschool. This is the best introduction to not just homeschooling, but every form of education out there, because it's not just a homeschooling book. It's more about here are all the different ways that you can educate your children. And now I recommend it to everybody because I think it's just a great introduction to unschooling, homeschooling, all those things. So. With going back to the process of writing and working with your publisher and such on each of these books, how has the process of writing your books changed? Are there major differences that you've implemented from one book to the other? Or is there a common recipe that you've followed.
Kerry:
So what was really lucky. And I think in some ways surprising with both of the books was that there were very few edits from the publisher when I completed the manuscript. At least with the second book, the more recent book I had dear friends of mine read through the manuscript and offer comments here and there. So I had some, some additional readers, but I was surprised that, how intact the manuscripts really were.
Josh:
There weren't that many edits
Kerry:
There weren't that many edits they go through the line editing process, the kind of copyediting process. And there's some. You know, finishing touches there that the publisher will provide, but for the most part, the content really remained intact in both cases. So there were very few revisions. So anyway, it was good. I had expected many iterations, many rounds of edits, particularly with the Unschooled book, I thought that there would be more editorial pushback in some of the things that I was saying that they would want to change more. but they didn't, and that was really, surprisingly good because it saved a lot of time and also routine really, the format and the content that I was hoping for.
Josh:
So you said that it took about a year for it to go to published after it was submitted. How long did you work on it? In the writing process before?
Kerry: Yeah, so right. So a proposal and, and I think, again, you're listening to. Probably know this, or you talked about this before, but proposal is like a business plan for your book.
So it typically has a marketing element. It has who you are, why you're meant to write this book. It has your competitors. Why, what sets your book apart? What is the potential market who is going to buy this and how? The size of your potential market is, it has kind of a well-thought-out introduction to the book for the agent and the publisher to read. And then it has one or two complete chapters in this. So it ends up being a 30-to-50-page proposal, for example, so that takes a lot of time. But with nonfiction writing, of course, I don't have to write the full book when we're going for a traditional publisher, we write this robust proposal and these polished sample chapters, and then we wait to get a book deal. And then we can write it because then we get the advanced to write the book. So that makes it a little bit easier, I think, to approach the book. And so for, for Unschooled, I think I said it was you specify in the proposal how long it will take you to finish the manuscript when you'll submit it. And so there I said it would take six months from the point of signing a contract with the publisher to when I would submit the finished manuscript to them. I ended up doing it in less. This time, just because it was such a big project, I felt like I needed to put a lot of effort into it and get it done and it took a lot of time away from my family. So the sooner that I could complete it the better, and it was also once I really got into writing it-And I think this would be true for your listeners as well-I think in some cases, because this was a topic That I was so familiar with that I had been writing about for so long that I could cite sources off the top of my head because I knew the topic inside and out, made that process of writing it much quicker than I think even I expected it to go because so much of it had been said, or I knew what I was going to say.
Josh:
Where are you able to reuse or repurpose any content you had already written like articles or anything where you could kind of copy and paste it and then edit a little bit? Or did you write it pretty much from scratch?
Kerry:
So for a traditional publisher that will say in your contract that you can't, that everything has to be original, you can't recycle. But certainly, that the concepts were the same of things that I had written before. So word for word No, it was original to the book, but the topics and the subject areas and the resources that I included were all things that I had written about before.
Josh:
So one question: cover design, working with traditional publishers A lot of people assume that they're going to have control over the cover and what the book looks like. How did that go for you?
Kerry:
Yeah. So working with traditional publishers, you, Generally the title of the book might change and certainly the cover will not be something you typically would create. So in both books I really liked the titles that they came up with, in, for my most recent one, the Unschooled book. Yeah. I think I had given them sort of a series of maybe 15 or 20, possibilities for what it would be called. And this was in line with what they ultimately picked. They sort of picked and chose from my list and, and came up with that book in terms of the cover design. Yeah. They work with their own graphic designers to create the cover. And I was really happy, particularly with the Unschooled books cover.
Josh:
Cool. Now you did not release this book in hardcover. Was there any particular reason for that or why the publisher didn't want to do hard cover?
Kerry:
The publishers generally do trade paperbacks for this kind of book. So a hardcover wouldn't have even been something they would have considered
Josh:
Whereas with a business genre type book, it is kind of expected
Kerry:
yep.
Josh:
Yep. But you did release an audio book version, which I'm glad of because I'm a huge fan of audio books. Was that standard practice with your publisher or was that something that you pushed for?
Kerry:
It was standard practice, at least for the Unschooled book, the wedding book-I wasn't, I don't even think audio books were for that much of a thing. I mean, there were the CDs, I suppose.
Josh:
Yeah. Back then it was CDs or maybe even still tapes
Kerry:
But yeah, so it wasn't with the 2005 books, but certainly with the Unschooled book, the publisher, at least in my experience, the publisher once they had purchased my book, then shopped it around to various audiobook producers who then bought the rights to the audio books from it. So those, the audio book sales have been really, really good. I think I, like you, I listen to audiobooks all the time. I feel like I can get through many more books that way. So because that was really separate, even from my involvement, I really had very little to do with the audio portion, but it can help to boost sales and helps to recover your advance much quicker because they're selling the book to the audiobook producer. So I think it's a, win-win really for authors free for publishers and for the audiobook producers.
Josh:
So, what do you consider a success for Unschooled? Is it another sale? Is it someone sending you an email and telling you that they like it? Is it getting a speaking engagement? What makes you say it?
Kerry:
Yeah, I think, as with writing articles or, just expanding kind of your writing horizons to do different outlets, it helps to build up your credibility. It helps to build up. Your bio, so that now when I'm introduced in various, podcasts, interviews, or other kinds of interviews, it says on the author of this book so in that way, it's really been helpful in, expanding, like you said, presenter opportunities, other writing opportunities, being seen as a go-to expert on a particular topic, particularly at a time like this, when homeschooling, so top of mind, so having various media outlets reach out to me for commenting. It really just solidifies that kind of credibility.
Josh:
Now, if you could go back and do anything differently with Unschooled, what would it be? Are there any lessons learned?
Kerry:
Yeah. I think what I would have done would have been to switch to a new agent sooner. So, I was working with the previous agency that had been bought and sold actually, since I had worked with them back in 2005 and I felt like I should probably stick with them, but they weren't really publishing the kinds of books that Unschooled was. And I was just a little bit afraid to take the leap and think about getting a new agent, because it was like, what if I don't get any wages? You know, what if, what if, what if, what if, and sure enough, once I made that decision to Actually start researching agents who were publishing books like mine, like my Unschooled book, who had a successful track record in that particular genre of books. Once I did that and started reaching out to literary agents there, that process went really quickly. I was able to quickly get an agent and then she was able to really quickly publish the book. So, I would say that would probably have been my best advice is, don’t hesitate. If you feel like another agent might be a better fit for your particular book to shop around and try to find another agent. That being said, though, I think that the delay also helped me to do more research in the interim to become more comfortable with the topic, to feel like I was more of an expert to get published in places like Forbes, that I hadn't been before. So, in hindsight it all worked out. But I do think that that was something that I might've done a little bit differently is really make sure you have the right agent for the right book.
Josh:
So tell us about the new project, teachcapitalism.com? Tell us the inspiration for this. What's the story here? What are you planning on doing with this? I mean, you've told us a little bit about it, but let's go into some more depth on it.
Kerry:
Yeah. I think it really will be a series of children's books as well as parenting books and tools, that celebrate capitalism and look at the ways in which free market capitalism has. Produced tremendous wealth prosperity and progress for everyone. We look at, for example, a typical middle-class American today is wealthier than John D Rockefeller a hundred years ago. You know, if you think about, the kinds of progress that we've all seen. Experience the kinds of comforts that we all have. That's all thanks to capitalism. And I do think that capitalism ends up getting criticized and smeared frequently. And there's really a push much more towards socialism and collectivism. And I think young people are getting those kinds of messages through their classrooms and their communities on social media, through websites, and I just want to provide parents with tools that enable them to offer a different perspective of, how we've gotten to be as successful as a society as we are, how we've been able to lift millions and billions of people out of poverty thanks to the powers of capitalism, cooperation, free exchange, that these are the kinds of ideas that I think get lost and get drowned out because there's so many other books that are presenting an opposite viewpoint. So I want to just balance that out a bit.
Josh:
So what will be the first tool that you're releasing? Is it the website? Is it a book? What's it going to be?
Kerry:
Yeah, the plan is, a children's book, a picture book about sort of the ABCs of capitalism that look at these ideas. but in digestible format, For children. And I think it's a book that parents will really like too. For example, A is for abundance and looking at what we are able to gain through free markets and through cooperative exchange for mutual gain and how much that's given us. So I think it's something that parents will really appreciate and enjoy sharing with their kids. So that's the first goal and I'm working with a wonderful illustrator. who's had a lot of experience in creating these kinds of things before, who also believes in this project and in this mission. And so that's really rewarding as well.
Josh:
Now will these also be appropriate for politicians or are they a little bit too advanced?
Kerry:
That's where the other resources that will be available to parents, to adults to help them figure out how to communicate these ideas to their kids can be helpful on their own whether or not they have young people in their lives.
Josh:
Now will you be working with a traditional publisher on these or will this be a self-publish?
Kerry:
No. So this, that will be all self-published at least for the foreseeable future. mainly because I want to get them out quickly and I think self-publishing is the way to do that. I want to have A lot of them. So I want to be able to have that quantity and have that out for people. so I think self publishing in this case is the right way to go and build up that particular website in that, and that approach.
Josh:
So are you going to be working through Amazon KDP or IngramSpark, or how are you handling the actual production of the book?
Kerry:
Yeah for these and it will be through Amazon. I, for the kind of future series, I'm not exactly sure yet if we might switch gears a little bit, but initially it will be through Amazon.
Josh:
And are you going to produce all of this content or are you going to bring other people in to also be authors and create content along with you? What's the big vision here?
Kerry:
Well, it'd be great to create jobs, right? I mean, that's sort of media, the intent of capitalism is to build more opportunities for more people and hopefully hire more people on. But then, in that kind of startup phase, it will be me producing all the content again, working with this wonderful illustrator, at least initially.
Josh:
Great. Well, what tips do you have for people who are just getting stuck, guarded as authors who might be listening to this, they might be in the same genre that you're in. Maybe they're passionate about education. They care about homeschooling, or they care about families. And they're trying to figure out where do I go with my idea? Where do I get started? Knowing what you know now and knowing how the industry works today. What would you recommend for somebody just getting started as a first-time author?
Kerry:
Yeah, I'll have kind of two answers to that because I, one of the things I love doing is talking to young writers, writers who are still in college or recently out of college or in their early twenties looking to get into a career in writing, in journalism or becoming a book author, all kinds of different possibilities. So I love sharing this advice. And my primary advice is to get published as early, as often as you can. And so start looking around for these different media outlets that will take unsolicited articles and you might be surprised at just how lucky you could get in terms of getting something placed. You can look at, local kind of. Your local or regional media outlets. For example, I've had success in the local NPR station in Massachusetts of getting published there. so you can look at kind of local or regional media outlets, as well as aim big so you have nothing to lose. By pitching, for example, to USA Today, that last time I checked accepts unsolicited articles. The New York Times, the Atlantic, they all take unsolicited as an email address that you can send unsolicited articles too. And the worst thing is you don't hear back from them. You give it a few days and then you go on to the next. And so I think it's definitely important to try to publish wherever you can to build up your brand and build up your area of expertise. And don't be afraid to aim high and then kind of work your way down if you need to, but you might be surprised that you don't need to. And then a related note, which I think is really unfortunate, but also something that I think there can be a kind of a teaching moment as well. As I was talking with one aspiring writer this summer who was asking these same questions that you've been asking, how do I get into this? I really love writing. How do I do it? And I was giving these same kinds of answers, try to find local or regional outlets that would take on solicited articles and so on. And in her case, she was a college student, loved writing, wanted a career as a writer, as a freelancer, and was living through being a college student during a pandemic. And so she had been sent home from school, from college in the spring. And I said, “Oh my gosh, you have all this incredible Knowledge and experience.” And like, it just seemed like so many media outlets would love to hear a story like this, and she was a great writer. so I said; “Just write up your story of what it's like to be a college student sent home disconnected from your college and your peers and this incredible time.” Like that is a perfect way of starting the process of shopping around what I thought would be a really great article. And then she said something that really kind of struck me. She said: “Well, I just feel like, I'm this kind of privileged middle-class white person. We know I shouldn't share my story. There's nothing to see here.” And I thought at first it hadn't even occurred to me that that would even be, something that would stop you from sharing your experience and trying to get something published if this is your dream. But second, I thought, if that's kind of the worldview, what stories aren't we seeing?
You know, they just seem such a shame that she felt like she couldn't share her story, which was remarkable and interesting. And I think it would be appealing for a lot of people to read. So just feeling that that kind of being silenced, was really upsetting. And I think also is sort of indicative of what's happening in a lot of college campuses now, unfortunately.
Josh:
That is a shame because it's not as though writing a book or sharing your story is a zero-sum game. If you share your story, it doesn't crowd out somebody else's story. And the more stories we have out there, the better.
Kerry:
Exactly. Especially at this time with so many different media outlets, hungry for content every day. Fresh content and fresh perspectives. You're absolutely right. There was nothing that her sharing her story, isn't going to prevent someone else from sharing their story. And it might just do the opposite, right? It might just prompt some other college student to share his or her perspective on the same experience. so, that's where I think being a writer, being an author is hard enough, that if you create, if you end up putting up these, your own roadblocks that just makes it that much harder. And so, kind of push forward and get published where you can, don't be afraid to share your stories and speak about what you are passionate about.
Josh:
Now you sound like you like to write, is that an accurate assessment?
Kerry:
I do. I really, really do like to write, and I think a lot of your listeners probably find this too, that the more you write, the better you get, obviously, but the faster you get and the more enjoyable it becomes, because I think it gets easier. The more you do it becomes sort of a pattern in your life.
Josh:
Do you think being an author is something that you're kind of born to, or that you're trained on or develop-what's your perspective?
Kerry:
Oh, I think it's probably a little bit of both. I mean, in my case it was something I always loved to do since I was a really young child. I always loved to write. So I think there was definitely something there that led me in that path. But that's not to say that it's something that you'd have to be kind of fostering since you were a child. I think there's a lot of people who come to writing and particularly writing books later in life often because of a passion they have, or some experiences that they've gained some knowledge that they want to share. So I think it's a combination really.
Josh:
How do you feel about the other side of being a writer, which is reading? You must have done a lot of reading growing up as well.
Kerry:
That's right. Well, that's interesting too, because I always really loved to write and I did love to read really until I remember, sometime in middle of elementary school, really in some ways losing that love of reading because of the way that reading became a chore. And this is something I talk about a lot in the Unschooled book, it becomes where you're assigned different books that may or may not be interesting to you in the way that you're expected to approach reading Is halting. It's not the way we would typically sit down with a book. So you might remember, don't read ahead or, read for 20 minutes and your timer will go off. and this is, I think, accelerated even since I was a kid. I mean, I remember seeing these, these bookmarks that have timers on them now that a lot of kids use because they're expected to read, 15 or 20 minutes every night, and then as soon as the timer goes off, they put it down. to me that's a sure-fire way of getting kids not to like reading. so, certainly I plowed through and did what I had to do during K to 12 during grade school in high school. But it really wasn't until college, when I was able to kind of rediscover self-directed learning and that's love of learning and reading because I was able to read books that matter to me and topics that were interesting to me that then I kind of reconnected with that passionate love of reading that I had as a young child. And then that's fortunately continued, but I'm always sad to think of other adults who may have really loved reading in the early ages, or maybe would have loved reading in the early ages of it If the love of reading hadn't been kind of diminished through this kind of forced schooling, forced curriculum approach.
Josh:
So now, including research, reading for pleasure, everything, how would you quantify the amount of reading you do these days?
Kerry:
Oh, goodness. Well, if we do I'm definitely listening to an audio book. I usually listen at one and a half speed. So I'm going through audio books at least one a week, if not two depending on the length.
And then, on my Kindle. I have to say I was reticent about getting a Kindle because I thought, oh, I just love the hard copy books. And like you, with your background, I have a lot of I have a home library that I absolutely love. So I thought, oh, I need these tangible books. So I really delayed getting a Kindle, but I have to say I just absolutely love the Kindle and I can read a lot quicker on the Kindle I find, as well.
So probably going through, Again, maybe a book every two weeks on the Kindle sometimes faster. so that's been great as well.
Josh:
So any topic, any genre, what are some of your favorite books that you've read recently?
Kerry:
Well, for example, right now, I'm reading marginal revolutionaries, which is about the history of the Austrian school of economics, which really focuses a lot on the fundamentals of free market capitalism. So that's been exciting, something that I had been familiar with, in terms of the individual players, like FAA, Hayak the Nobel prize winning economist and limited Bon Misa is his mentor. Milton Friedman, that, that sort of thing. But, now to have this sort of historical perspective of the origins of the Austrian school has been really interesting.
So yeah, I try to read a lot of economics, a lot of, you know, kind of political science, history. Yeah. That's where my interest has been lately.
Josh:
Okay. So I got asked this question. You studied economics as an undergrad, but you went to two historically very progressive liberal left leaning universities. And yet you ended up with this basis in libertarian economics and the Austrian school and everything. Where did that transition happen?
Kerry:
Yeah, it really happened at Harvard. So I was very apolitical, I mean, I never really thought anything of politics growing up. My family wasn't particularly politically active. So I had no sense of kind of a political worldview at the time. And then, I went to college, fell in love with economics. I had never taken an economics course before. Never knew anything about it. And I was just completely captivated and, and. Had to major in it and learn as much as I could. I was just completely blown away by this perspective of the world, which I think was sort of certainty the foundation for my Liberty, ultimate libertarianism. I mean, just looking at, just things like reading the wall street journal every day, because it was relevant to some of the things that we were learning economics. It starts to make you have a different perspective on the world and on the choices that people make and the choices, that they're not able to make. And that was actually why I got interested in education because I felt like there was this sort of government monopoly and education, and a lot of ways that prevented choice and freedom for families. But then I went to Harvard and I remember that in one of my classes we were talking about some public policy anecdote or scenario, and the instructor had us break into small groups to discuss this scenario and then come up with our policy recommendations. And so we had maybe 25 minutes let's say for our small group discussion with maybe five or six of us in this group. And we went around the group and I was the last to speak, but everyone was giving their recommendation. It was, oh, well let's just raise taxes. Oh, let's just raise taxes. We'll just raise taxes and that'll pay for it. And I'll be fine. And so two and a half minutes later, it got to me and everyone was kind of unanimous that we should just raise taxes and that would be the appropriate policy recommendation.
And then I said, well, I don't want to raise taxes. I don't think that's the right approach. Let's think about cutting spending. Let's think about other ways of approaching this particular policy problem. And it was, as if I said the world was flat, it was like, wow, how could we not raise taxes is clearly the approach. And so that's really, I think what started maybe bridging my kind of economics background within this kind of political worldview or policy worldview. and then I said, where, where do I fit in the scheme of things? And that was when I discovered free market capitalism and libertarianism.
Josh:
Wonderful. Well Kerry, thanks so much for being here with us. We'll link to your profiles, social media websites, everything in the show notes, any last words, any parting thoughts?
Kerry:
Oh, no, I'm so thrilled that you're, you're doing this project. I think this is going to be such a wonderful resource for writers and aspiring authors and experienced authors. There's so much that we can learn not only from each other, but from your background and your successes as well.
Josh:
Great. Well, thank you so much for being with us here today. Kerry McDonald, author of Unschooled and other books, and an exciting project coming up at teachcapitalism.com. Thank you so much, Kerry.
Kerry:
Thanks again, Josh.
Josh:
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