How To Become a Ghostwriter Everyone Wants To Hire
Rob Tighe took some of the luck of his native land to New Zealand when he moved there some years ago.
From Ireland, Rob had written a magazine profile on New Zealand entrepreneur Tony Quinn. Rob emailed a copy of the profile to Tony, adding a PS acknowledging one of Tony’s comments about eventually writing a book. The PS said: “I’d love to have a crack at that book one day if you’re keen to chat about it.”
Tony was keen on more than just a chat, and hired Rob as his ghostwriter. Titled "Zero to 60", Rob’s first ghostwritten book became a bestseller!
The luck came with the PS. The rest of the little story above speaks volumes about Rob’s talent as a ghostwriter, and the fact that he and Tony really got along and had a great working relationship.
Rob tells his story to host Josh Steimle in this latest episode of the Published Author Podcast. He also shares loads of secrets on how to be the best possible ghostwriter you can be, and how to seek out a ghostwriter
TOP TAKEAWAY: PUT YOURSELF IN THE SHOES OF A READER, AND KEEP ASKING QUESTIONS
Rob says telling Tony’s story in Zero to 60 taught him almost everything he needed to know about being a successful ghostwriter. He acknowledges too that his background in journalism played a role in his success.
“The key was kind of taking Tony's thoughts and ideas and making them coherent. As with a piece of journalism, you've got to make sure that every sentence, every paragraph flows into the next one,” says Rob.
“An editor once told me: ‘Make sure you answer every possible question that the reader might have’. So that's what I tried to do.” , I tried not to get too bogged down in the enormity of the task. I tried to take each chapter on its own merits and do as good a job as I could of each chapter.”
The important thing is to never stop asking questions, to keep probing for details. “Sometimes that means asking the same question three or four times, and sometimes it means rephrasing the question a different way,” explains Rob. “I would often revisit the key pivotal, turning points in Tony’s life three or four times throughout the process.
“Every time you'd ask a question, you'd get a slightly different answer that would add more nuance to the answer, more detail and colour.”
Despite Rob’s training in journalism and skill as a writer, he sometimes wondered how the various strands of Tony’s life would pull together as a narrative. “I tried not to get too bogged down in the enormity of the task. I tried to take each chapter on its own merits and do as good a job as I could of each chapter. I took each chapter on its own merits, writing it almost as a mini kind of feature article or profile.”
In particular , the final sprint to the finish line demanded intense focus. Says Rob: “I took myself off for two weeks and dedicated myself solely to the book. I didn't look at any other email, I didn't look at any other parts of my business. And I left my family for two weeks, they went off on holiday somewhere.
“I got a house and just spent two weeks working from 6 a.m. til 8 p.m., totally focused on that final edit process and making sure that each chapter was as good as it could be, he says, adding that if anyone wants to be a ghostwriter, there needs to be a couple of weeks of total concentration at the very end of a book, because this will “make or break your book.”
Other key learnings for ghostwriters and entrepreneurs hiring a ghostwriter include:
A book is very much a long game, and the client’s business can change. This means that the objective and purpose of a book can change.
Capturing your client’s voice is essential. Rob transcribed every word and paid close attention to the way Tony talked and the phrases he used.
Ghostwriting a book is challenging for the writer and entrepreneur. Both must dig deeply into the subject's past, and some people find this difficult.
Storytelling is the most important tactic when it comes to ghostwriting.
Sometimes a ghostwriter should work according to an outline, while at other times it’s best to let a story evolve organically.
A good relationship between a ghostwriter and the entrepreneur is essential. You’re both going to spend a lot of time together, and trust is essential because the entrepreneur is going to open up to the ghostwriter.
A ghostwriter needs to select projects carefully. For Rob, Tony’s story stood out because of the story. “This guy building something in the middle of nowhere with his own money . . . It was a story that was too good to turn down. I didn't chase the book opportunity - I was open to it. And that's key - just spotting those opportunities is a big part of it.”
If you’re keen to improve as a ghostwriter, or you’re an entrepreneur who wants to hire a ghostwriter, this episode is a must listen!
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Josh Steimle
Today our guest is Rob Tighe. He has worked with words for 18, years initially as an award-winning journalist and more recently as a copywriter, storyteller and number one best-selling ghostwriter. Previously, Rob was the country editor for the Red Bulletin, which is Red Bulls global adventure lifestyle magazine. And he was also an award-winning freelance journalist for various newspapers and magazines including espn.com, Metro, New Zealand Geographic Skysport the Magazine, Herald on Sunday, and the Sunday Star times. In 2015, Rob wrote Zero to 60 the life and times of Tony Quinn, a Scottish Australian entrepreneur who made his fortune selling pet food and invested some of his some of his millions in building a world class racetrack in New Zealand. The book went to number one on the New Zealand nonfiction bestsellers list. And Rob is currently working on three other books for New Zealand entrepreneurs. You might be able to guess where he's living right now, which is New Zealand. In 2018, Rob founded Storybud.co to help business leaders find and tell better stories. And although Rob's in New Zealand, he's originally from Ireland. He moved to New Zealand in 2004, where he lives with his family, and he enjoys long distance trail races, which leads into my first question, but first, welcome, Rob. Thank you for being here.
Rob Tighe
Cheers Josh. Thanks for having me.
Josh Steimle
So my first question is, which you can tell I'm eager to ask is, what are your favorite trail running shoes?
Rob Tighe
I use a UK brand called Innovate, Josh and they are fantastic. I found them a few years ago and they just work really, really well. They're no nonsense, no frills, but yeah, they're great, great shoes.
Josh Steimle
Alright, I'll have to try those out. I got into trail running a few years back and I wrote for Asia Trail magazine while I was living in Hong Kong and China. And so they gave me tons of trail running shoes to try out. I never tried out that brand. But I tried out every single other brand. It seemed like a trail running shoe. I love Altras I just can't live without my Altras they're the number one trail running shoe for me. So
Rob Tighe
Excellent.
Josh Steimle
So what's the longest distance that you've run? About three weeks ago, Josh, I run a 50 K and so 50 kilometers down in earr Lake Taupo, which is in the middle of the North Island of New Zealand. So yeah, that was an epic day out on just perfect trend running conditions. It was really dry, really soft, springy trails. And yeah, I survived. I got around and suffered a bit in the last 15 kilometers or so. But man! What a feeling as you know, from running trail. That that feeling you get when you go through the pain barrier and get to the finish line. It's it's pretty special. It is great. And I bet there's some beautiful trail running in New Zealand.
Rob Tighe
Yeah, we're lucky we are spoilt for choice for sure. I mean, it's taken me to some beautiful parts of New Zealand. Obviously, I live in Auckland in the North Island. But last year, I went down to Queenstown on the South Island for just a spectacular mountain marathon called the Shotover Moonlight Marathon, which again, if anybody is interested in trail running, that's another epic race down in the South Island of New Zealand.
Josh Steimle
All right, we could talk about trail running the rest of the day here, but we got to get onto book stuff. Right? So I want to ask this question first off about ghostwriting, because that's what we'll be focusing on primarily here today. What are some of the misconceptions people have about ghostwriters or the ghostwriting process when it comes to books?
Rob Tighe
And I guess there are, there's two types of ghostwriters, I guess, is maybe the ghostwriter who does you know, 99% of the writing and comes up with all the ideas and basically takes over the project on the other type of ghostwriter who basically interviews and the people I work with and draws the stories out of them, you know, I mean, and so I mean, for me, the key is to try and capture the voice of the person you're working with. And so it doesn't read like my book that it reads like the clients book and, and capturing that voice I think is one of the biggest challenges of ghostwriting, I would say that you have to be able to adapt your writing and to capture the voice of the person you're working with on that particular book. Right.
Josh Steimle
Great. Okay, pause. So with that as context, take us back a little bit and tell us your backstory. Where did you come from? Where did you grow up? How did you become a writer? Tell us a little bit more about your history and how you got from there to this point of where your ghostwriting executives' books today.
Rob Tighe
Yeah, well, as you said in the intro, I'm from Ireland originally from a small town in the west of Ireland, where I grew up on a dairy farm. And so milking cows and and playing football and reading heaps took up I suppose most of my time when I'm when I was younger. And reading I suppose you know was was obviously crucial to what I what I what I do now and and obviously I read stuff like Roald Dahl and Stephen King and those kind of characters. But probably my biggest influence was was newspapers and sports writers and sports journalists in particular, I just devoured that stuff. I mean, it was the golden age of newspapers, I remember we used to get like the daily paper religiously, we used to get a local paper, original paper. And then every Sunday, my dad would go out and get three Sunday newspapers. And that's how he spent wet Sunday mornings in Ireland was just reading the newspaper from from cover to cover. And then I remember when I was like 13, or 14, my mum gave me a typewriter with a manual on that taught me how to touch type. She I think she may have seen something that I didn't at that time. And that was just such a such a, a boon really, to get that kind of experience behind me and to start typing at that age.
Josh Steimle
So how old were you again, when you started typing,
Rob Tighe
I think I was 13 or 14. And so I mean, I wasn't the most diligent student, but she, I think she saw that I that I had potential to be a writer and that type and giving me this typewriter was her way of kind of showing him here's a little hint for you. Without a push, it was just a little hint. And it was enough. And it was a really, really great present. And from there that kind of motivated me I contacted the editor of the local newspaper, got a summer job and kind of had my heart set on journalism. And then I went to university where I studied English and sociology and politics. And I kind of got sidetracked Josh, I kind of came to associate writing with boring academic essays and exams and pressure. And and it put me off to an extent and put me off for a few years actually, I took a took a swerve and went down the corporate road and worked for and worked in insurance and sales and recruitment. I worked in the recruitment industry for a few years. But I think all the while during my 20s, there was this nagging voice in the back of my head saying, Come on, you know what you want to do, you should be a writer. So eventually, I think I was 28 when and I walked into a bookshop, and I picked up a book by Tony Robbins. Now, I would have been a total self-help skeptic up to that point. But for some reason, that book just spoke to me that day. And I took it home and I went through it and I did the exercises and kind of the message with any of those self-help boxes, you know, you get to live your choice, your life by choice, not by chance, you've got to make decisions to make things happen. And, and that really was the turning point. For me. I kind of wrote down my goal that I wanted to become a journalist that I wanted to become a sports writer. I went back to my hometown, I had been living in Dublin, I went back to my hometown, and begged the editor to give me any job he could in the paper. And so he gave me a start as a sports reporter, and 20 years later, I'm still writing. And I suppose that role gave me you know, a taste of journalism. And from there, I got more experience under my belt. I came to New Zealand in 2004. And I pretty much started from from the bottom, Josh. I had to ride and I remember writing advertorials for them, like barbecue restaurants and furniture stores, and then doing some really soul destroying work. But again, it was great grounding. And, you know, particularly we might talk about this later, what I do now where I write for businesses, it was just a great grounding in that kind of writing. But gradually, I got more experienced, I started freelancing, I started working for better magazines and newspapers. And then I got a big break around 2010 when I got a job with Red Bull, and editing their country magazine called the Red Bulletin and when I was just a fantastic opportunity to kind of I interviewed their extreme athletes, I interviewed with musicians, I interviewed business people, entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs, kind of across the board really, and just some really inspiring people that were just great kind of raw material for feature stories.
Josh Steimle
It sounds like a pretty exciting gig.
Rob Tighe
It was, it was cool and the thing was, it was a real eye opener for me in terms of working with those people. I think a lot of people when you think of Red Bull and extreme athletes, and I think you're into skateboarding, but a lot of people may be associated extreme athletes with you know, just give it a go or just, you know, chuck it off a ramp and see what happens but it's the complete opposite though. The guys that I met through Red Bull were just the most thoughtful and considered and motivated. People you know, you can imagine I mean, these guys are like entrepreneurs themselves, right? You know, because they have to market themselves and have to set goals for themselves. They had to have to set targets they have to market themselves. They're just phenomenal. And, and working with those guys and interviewing those guys really opened a lot of doors for me, including the opportunity to write my first book. And which came out of a magazine profile I did on Tony Quinn, a guy who had kind of come, he got some kind of press in New Zealand for this racetrack that he built in a small town in Cromwell and Central Otago and Cromwell. And it's quite sleepy kind of a town. It's an orchard town and with some vineyards. But not a lot happened in Cromwell and Tony came along and spent like $30 million on building like a world class motorsport track in this just beautiful picture is setting in the South Island of New Zealand. So I went down to see the racetrack and see this man who had built the racetrack and hung out with him for the weekend. And it was just an incredible story. And he had come from nothing really in Scotland and moved to Australia, and got involved in the pet food industry and built his brand up to be the leading brand in Australia. And just before he invested the money in the racetrack, he sold his company for like $400 million, or something like that. So just a great rags to riches story. And Tony was also just a gifted storyteller. He had a real gift of the gab. And during the course of the weekend, he told me that he he was trying to write a book, he was determined to write his life story. But he had already fired two writers. So that should have set some alarm bells ringing in my head. But
Josh Steimle
Yeah, it seems like kind of a red flag there.
Rob Tighe
Yeah, a little bit, right. But he explained the reason and the rationale, he just said that the guys, the writers he worked with just didn't quite get it. They didn't they weren't capturing his voice. They had sent him some samples. And it wasn't quite what he wanted. And he's Scottish. I'm Irish. And we just clicked that weekend. And so I mean, I've never really considered writing a book up to that point, Josh. And but again, it was just one of those moments, I finished the magazine profile on him. And I emailed it to him and to his personal assistant. And I just added a PS, at the end of the email, I said, Listen, you told me about writing a book one day, I'd love to have a crack at it if you if you're keen to chat about it. And that one PS led to working with Tony on his book led to a number one bestseller, and it'll lead to what I'm doing now in terms of working with other entrepreneurs and other businesses. So yeah, it was definitely the most the most important piece of my life, I would say, Josh.
Josh Steimle
That's great. So what did the process look like, of getting this book out of Tony's head? Did you do a lot of in person meetings, phone zoom? What did that look like?
Rob Tighe
Yeah, he he, as I said, was, was a really good storyteller. But in terms of capturing the story, I sat down with him kind of once a week or twice a week for about two to three hours. And I just asked him a couple of questions and let him talk really, I mean, at that stage, I very much wanted him to kind of zero in on the key turning points in his life. And I didn't interrupt too much at that stage, I just let it flow and, and it was the best thing I could have done because he had you know, a lot of stories to tell. And and I suppose those stories kind of formed the edges if you like, of the of the jigsaw puzzle, I mean, that's the kind of way I look at a book, certainly a ghostwriting project is you've got to kind of piece the puzzle together. And and, and by letting the the clients kind of talk freely at the beginning. And they give you a really good outline of you know, what their life looks like. And so after that first initial kind of brain dump, if you like, from Tony, then it was a question of really mining and digging deep for the for the details that make any book or that make a story. And that was you know that that process also involves talking to lots of people around him, including his family, you know, people who worked in the business with him, people he raced against and his Motorsports side of things. And then it was just at the end of obviously, it was a process of putting the puzzle together, which I know you've been there. You've written a few books that is, you know, the most challenging and also the most rewarding part of the process, I think, right?
Josh Steimle
Yep. So how much time do you think you spent with interviewing Tony focused on just him and then how much time do you think you spent doing research with other people?
Rob Tighe
I would say with Tony It was probably over probably a four-month period three hours A couple of times a week. So what maybe 7070 hours, 6070 hours, something like that, and interviewing other people probably 20 to 30 hours, I would say. So somewhere around there, Josh, I would say, I mean, he had a hell of a story to tell. So yeah, there was, there was a lot of interviews to do and a lot of details to drag out of them. And so but yeah, roughly around that.
Josh Steimle
So when people think that, Oh, I'm just gonna hire a ghostwriter, and then they'll just write the book. And it's going to be easy. This was still a substantial amount of time for Tony, the successful entrepreneur to invest in this, right.
Rob Tighe
Yeah, correct. I mean, I and again, listen, it depends on the level of detail you want to go into, you know, there are different types of book, I wrote an e-book last year for an entrepreneur who was involved in business strategy. And that was much more focused on her business and her professional career. And that probably was closer to 20 hours or 25 hours. But Tony saw this very much as as a legacy project. So I mean, it for him, it was something that he wanted to do properly. I mean, he told me that one of the main motivations for getting his story down on paper was that he had a grandfather who had this incredible story of been involved in kind of erm, revolutions in Ireland and going to the states and on a boat and coming back, and paralyzed and learning to walk again, this incredible story of his grandfather, that he heard secondhand, and it was never written down on paper. And so for Tony, that was the main motivation to leave this legacy behind. So as a result, he he was determined to go into a lot of detail and really capture his story. So I mean, I think Tony's book ended up being 80,000, 90,000 words. So for other entrepreneurs, you can do as you know, you can do shorter books, 30,000 words, 40,000 words, is perfectly adequate for some for some books, as well. But this was this was a legacy for Tony.
Josh Steimle
Now, who did Tony expect to be the audience for this book? Who was he trying to reach?
Rob Tighe
Yeah, I guess, unlike some entrepreneurs and business, people who write a book, Tony didn't need to use it as a promotional promotional tool. I mean, he wasn't looking to get on the speaking circuit. He wasn't he wasn't looking to use it to promote his business. It was it was purely a legacy for for him and his family are so he told. And then as the book as we worked on the book, I was talking to him and saying, Listen, this story is inspirational, you've got to you've got to get this book out there. There's a there's a market for this book. Obviously, he was heavily involved in motorsport, he was as well as building this racetrack, he was also an accomplished and very successful and race driver himself and in Australia and New Zealand. So he had a large kind of network in the in that community that would have been interested in us. And he also had a really good profile in Australia and New Zealand in terms of the business community for what he did, because he had built this business, he bought and sold some other high profile businesses in Australia as well. So it ended up as I say, being much more than just a legacy project. The the the target market was that the motorsport communities in Australia and New Zealand and business communities and, and a lot of people bought it because it was just a, you know, just as such a great read as well, right.
Josh Steimle
So having written this book for Tony, this was the first book that you ever wrote, correct?
Rob Tighe
Correct. Yeah.
Josh Steimle
So what was that transition? Like going from writing articles working for Red Bull? And these publications where it was shorter form writing to writing this very long piece?
Rob Tighe
Yeah, it was, it was daunting. I'll be honest, though. There's definitely times during a book writing process where you think, how am I going to make this work? How am I going to put all the strands together, and but I did treat it as very much kind of, and I said this to other people before, taking each chapter on its own merits and writing it almost as a mini kind of feature article or profile. And approaching it that way. I mean, for me, I try, the key thing was to capture Tony's voice. And to do that, I mean, I transcribed every entity word for word. And I, you know, kept a really close here I for the way he talked and the phrases he used, and I made sure that I kind of didn't change them too much, didn't edit them out. And but at the same time, the key was kind of taking Tony's thoughts and ideas and making them coherent. You know, as well as with a piece of journalism, you've got to make sure that every sentence every paragraph flows into the next one, and an editor of mine once told me, make sure you answer every possible question that the reader might have. So that's what I tried to do, I tried not to get too bogged down in the enormity of the task if you like. And I just tried to take each chapter on its own merits and do as good a job as I could of each chapter. And then. And then in the final kind of editing and polishing process, Josh, I really took time to make sure that each chapter segues nicely into the other chapter as well, that again, was a, it was a key for me, and to make sure that the whole thing flowed and was coherent.
Josh Steimle
So as you were finishing up this book, then where was the handoff? Did you manage the book all the way through the process? Did you help him with printing and typesetting? and editing? Or did you connect him with the right people or the right companies? Or how involved were you?
Rob Tighe
No, I mean, I basically got it to a final draft stage he, he wasn't in a position where he already had a book, deal with it with a publisher, who, like me had heard the stories of this racetrack being built in the middle of nowhere down in the South Island said they had approached him and said, Listen, we'd really like to, to publish a book about about the about the restaurant. And I think their initial plan was that they wanted to be more about the racetrack and about his motorsport career. And but he convinced him that he wanted to tell his life story instead. And they were open to that once they read the write, once they read the final draft, they, they, they went all in and they helped, promoted, they got obviously designer on board and helped launch it around the country. So I basically took a step backwards at that stage. But I suppose one of the key things that Tony did was he was very actively involved in promoting it as well, he went on a nationwide tour around New Zealand with the book. So he contacted a lot of, again, his motorsport connections and held kind of events for the motorsport community in different parts of the country, and went to book shops and signed copies and promoted through book shops. So he was very actively engaged in the promotion of himself, which was, which was great.
Josh Steimle
Cool. How did the How did this lead to the other opportunities that you're working on right now you're working with three other entrepreneurs on ghostwriting books for them? Did they find you because of Tony's book? Or was it other connections?
Rob Tighe
Yeah, pretty much because of Tony's book. Yeah, they're, they're one of them was good friends with Tony. And, again, like, Tony, he had been intending to do this for a while. And it's funny, there's the three very different books and the three books give a real insight into the challenges, if you like, of writing or ghostwriting for entrepreneurs and business people, because things can change so dramatically with business owners. And it's an A book is very much a long game as well, you know, and their business can change. You know, in the course of writing the book, I mean, for example, the first one I did after Tony was for a construction company, and it was a family-owned business. And there was a, there was a father and two sons. And one of the sons approached me to try and again, capture, capture this, this family business and how they had built it from nothing and got it to a stage where it was a multimillion-dollar company in New Zealand. Over the course of the interviews, and over the course of writing it, I think, he realized that he wants to take a step back from the business. And so by the end of the process, he didn't need it as a promotional tool, which he originally intended. I think he intended for the book to be, you know, a line in the sand about this is our family business. And this is how we built it. And this is this is how we do things around here. But yeah, within you know, over the course of the six months or a year that we were writing it right, I actually don't want to run this business anymore. And it handed to me, General Manager. So that book is finished, but it's sitting in his inbox, and he decided to write it. He was glad to have done it. But it was like, Okay, I've got it off my chest. I've been through that. And it was a almost a cathartic process for him.
Josh Steimle
It was like therapy or something. And then once he's like, you know what, I'm out of here.
Rob Tighe
Yeah, exactly. Right. Which was, yeah, surprisingly, thankfully. I had invoice throughout the process, which is a good tip for anybody thinking of writing a book, make sure you work out a payment system in advance of that or something like that does happen. You're not left in the lurch, right? Because you know, that would have been an absolute disaster. The two other books, again, are at various stages of completion. Another of the guys I started working with, I think, realized halfway through the process, that his memory wasn't as good as he thought it was. And so he was trying to recall, you know, and details about his business dealings over the year, over the years and the back and the highs and the lows and he just really, really struggled to capture to recapture the details that he needed to write a book. So again, that's kind of being put on hold for the moment because he just wasn't ready to go there, I think and, you know, that's, you know, writing a book, it's a challenging process for the writer and the subject, right, because you got to dig deep into your past. And that's a challenging thing for a lot of people to do. Right? And, and then the final book project, again, it's, it's almost ready to be published. But just before we kind of ready to press the green light, the guy ran into some challenges with his business, then COVID came along and created some more challenges for his business. So he hasn't really got the ending that he wanted. Erm, again, that's an important part of a business book, or especially a memoir is, you know, where do you end it? And you obviously want to end on a kind of on a high note. And so this guy decided, right, let's just press pause on this project as well and see where we're at. So he's a guy, I've got a ring very shortly, actually and see where his head is at. So yeah, it's an interesting process, kind of writing a book for an entrepreneur, for sure.
Josh Steimle
So do you feel like this? Is your career going forward? Or do you feel like this is kind of a side thing that you're trying out for a little while, but you might go back to writing for publications? Or what do you see your future be?
Rob Tighe
Yeah, listen, I love the process of writing a book, obviously, you know, again, like trail running, the sense of achievement at the end of writing a book is pretty damn special to hold a physical book in your hand and know that you played a part in it. It's pretty fantastic. So yeah, I'm definitely always open to book opportunities. I've been talking to some other entrepreneurs as well at the moment about projects with them. And so yeah, listen, it's great. But and originally, kind of, after I wrote Tony's book, I did kind of contemplate setting up a business, offering an A to Zed type service. So you know, basically helping them ghost write the book, helping them publish it, helping them launch it. And but the more I looked into that, the more we realize they're very different skill sets, you know, in terms of in terms of, you know, publishing a book, it's dealing with the publishers in China, or Hong Kong or wherever, then there's so much detail involved in launching a book and promoting it. And I realized that it wasn't me that I was more excited about the writing process and the interviewing process and drawing stories out of people than then the publishing side of things. So since then, I kind of moved into a business model where I work with businesses and entrepreneurs on a kind of a distilled version of their book, which I call your origin story, which again, is a very similar process interviewing entrepreneurs and business people about you know, who they are, where they've come from, and what they do and why they do it, and then distilling that down into something they can use in, you know, on the website as a presentation or a speech or as a video to explain who they are. And that's working really well. And it, it gives people I guess, an insight into the process as well, if they're, if they're contemplating writing an E book or a book, going through this kind of mini version of it is just a really good starter for them. And I'm really excited about about about that at the moment, Josh.
Josh Steimle
what were some of the lessons learned from writing Tony's book that you've been able to bring into the process as you're working with these other clients of yours?
Rob Tighe
Yeah, good question. One, I got a lot more organized. I mean, I think I did Tony's first one on Google Docs. And so one of the first thing I did when I finished Tony's book was researched and writing software. And I invested in Scrivener, and if you've come across Scrivener. And that was fantastic, just in terms of getting more organized and making it much easier to kind of get an overview of the book and move things around and just pull the whole thing together. That was a really, really good investment and figuring out that was really, really important. In terms of the process.
Josh Steimle
Tell us a little bit more about the software there because a lot of people do have questions about do I use Word? Do I use Google Docs? Do I use Scrivener? Yeah, I've used Scrivener before I've used word obviously, I use Google Docs quite a bit. And I found that Scrivener there's a bit of a learning curve there with getting to use it but in your case you feel like that was worth it. Is that right?
Rob Tighe
Yeah, absolutely. I mean I just in terms of the usability and the ease of kind of being able to shift you know, and shift your view from chapter to chapter really, really quickly to compare chapters side by side to do to do searches on and phrases that reoccur regularly that maybe you need to you know, slightly tweak or change. Yeah, I just found the having the layout as well, having all your chapters down the side and in the sidebar was just a really just a really an instinctive kind of way of doing it as well and getting your head around the book. And because it's a lot of text, right, you know, and you've got to you've got to be able to manage it. And for me, Scrivener was a massive improvement on Google Docs. And it took a while to get my head around it, but definitely worth the investment in the time for sure.
Josh Steimle
Cool. So then what were some of the other lessons learned from Tony's book that you've brought into your current process?
Rob Tighe
I think, I think the important thing is to never kind of never, but you've got to you got to draw the line in the sand somewhere, but to keep asking questions to keep probing For details, sometimes that means asking the same question three or four times, you know, and sometimes it means rephrasing the question a different way. And, you know, I would often revisit, like the key pivotal, turning moments, turning points in his life, I would quite often revisit them, you know, three or four times throughout the process. And every time you'd ask a question, you'd get a slightly different answer that would add more kind of nuance to it, it would add more detail to it, it would add more color to it. And again, that comes from I guess, my journalism background is there's no such thing as a stupid question. And for me, I suppose I didn't come from a motorsport background. So I was very, very, I didn't bother me to ask questions that maybe a motorsport writer wouldn't have asked. So I was able to again, you just draw out a lot of detail from Tony that, you know, other writers wouldn't. And I think that's key, ask questions, asked lots of questions.
Josh Steimle
With this experience that you're getting under your belt, are you now tempted to write your own book?
Rob Tighe
Yeah, again, I don't know. It's not something that, you know, a few years ago, I would have ever thought I would have been interested in doing but since I've started kind of working with the entrepreneurs and business people around telling their stories and helping them tell better stories, I've really gone deep into that side of things. And I'm kind of working through the process with those guys about, you know, the art of storytelling and how it impacts people. That could be something that I'd be interested in sitting down one day and pulling together into a book, because it's fascinating. And I love that process of getting stories out of people. Because you know, so many people say, I don't have any stories to tell. But yeah, we all have amazing stories to tell that it's just a matter of kind of taking the time to reflect on them and actually sitting down and thinking about the stories that have, you know, influenced you and impacted you over the course of your life.
Josh Steimle
In Tony's book, was it just stories, or were there like lessons learned or call outs? or How did you organize that?
Rob Tighe
Yeah, it's interesting. And it was mainly, it was mainly a chronological kind of telling of his life. And Joshua wouldn't say there was kind of divided into chapters that were kind of instructional as such, it wasn't, it wasn't a how to manual of how he became successful in business. So I haven't haven't done too many of those types of books that are kind of very much, you know, this is how you do it. With Tony's book, it was it was very much at the arc of his life. But it was interesting, as we kind of went through the process, the theme of the book emerged, and I know some writers are very much into kind of an advocate, you know, you know, identifying your theme quite early on and doing a lot of outlining. For me in the way the book evolved with Tony, it was it was really organic, you know, through chatting with him, I realized that a lot of his kind of motivation. And his inner drive came from wanting to prove his father wrong. He had grown up working and with his dad who was also involved in the pet food business. And his we worked really hard with his dad, he loved hard work. But he also saw that his dad worked really hard for not much financial gain. And he ran away from the pet food industry. But then later in life, he got back involved in the pet food industry again. And I think over the course of the book, it emerged that a lot of his drive came from proving his father wrong. And that kind of was something that I zeroed in on in the book and kind of drew out a little bit from the some of the stories we talked about, which was which was interesting.
Josh Steimle
It is interesting. How do you get people comfortable telling those stories? Or I mean, in Tony's case, it sounded like he was just comfortable telling stories, generally. But yeah, how do you get somebody to really open up and share vulnerable, perhaps sensitive details about themselves?
Rob Tighe
Yeah, good question. It's a good It can be a slow process. Yeah, I get I think ideally, you have to be prepared sometimes to put in the time. And, you know, I guess slowly draw out the information from them. Yeah, I think sometimes you've got to kind of hold off on the on the harder questions till later on until you've established that sense of trust. And then and then build it up from there. But I like to think that I try to make it conversational rather than an interrogation. I think that's key, you've got to try and get a relaxed atmosphere during the interview. And so that they are comfortable to share those stories. Because, again, as I mentioned earlier, it is quite a it's quite a process for people to dig into their past and to, you know, think about, you know, the important turning points in their life. So, yeah, it's slowly slowly. I think you got to gain their trust.
Josh Steimle
What advice would you give to an entrepreneur or an executive who's looking for a ghostwriter? What's the right way to hire a ghostwriter? And hire the right ghostwriter?
Rob Tighe
Yeah, I mean, I think there's got to be some kind of, there's got to be, and the relationship has got to be good. You've got to get a sense that this is a person you can spend time with. And you know, sometimes you'll click with a ghostwriter. Sometimes you won't. I mean, I've met some entrepreneurs, and it hasn't worked out because for one reason or another, just the relationship isn't there. you've got to have a good I think, a good gut feeling about the person you're going to get to share your story with, you're going to open up to this person. So that for me is one of the keys you got to have that sense of the personality is going to be a good fit. And obviously, I think it does help if they've got some experience in your area of expertise as well, that that definitely helps. But for me that the priority is it's got to be relationship that works. So I would very much advocate that it has to be personality driven.
Josh Steimle
If there was somebody out there kind of like you a few years ago, maybe they're working in journalism or writing articles, and they're thinking, Hey, I might want to become a ghostwriter. What would you advise them knowing what you know, now?
Rob Tighe
I think it's, it's do good work. I mean, if you do good work, for every publication you you work for, I think automatically, you'll start to get better better opportunities, you know, you've got to put it, you've got to invest so much of yourself into each article. And never accept kind of second best when you're when you're writing an article. Make sure it's the very best you can be. From there, it's it's really, I suppose, a case of keeping an eye out for opportunities. And something that's a little bit different. I mean, the Tony Quinn story just jumped out at me, not as a book project. But just as as just something totally, you know, unique and different. This guy building something in the middle of nowhere, with his own money was was just a story that was too good to turn down. I didn't chase the book opportunity. But I was open to it. I think. And, and that's key, because, you know, just spotting those opportunities is a big part of it.
Josh Steimle
How do you handle billing? Is it hourly? Is it by the project, because every engagement is different, and you don't really know what you're getting into at the beginning of it?
Rob Tighe
Yeah, that's a really good point. And I tend to, again, base it on kind of those initial interviews with the client, where I get to try and get a good feeling and a good sense for how much how much information or existing kind of research that can provide me with how much that I will have to do myself. And whether they themselves are good storytellers, or whether I will have to end up writing a good chunk of it, you know, you've got to weigh up all those things. And and decide on a with, with most of the books I've written, it's been a project and price where I kind of work out and get a sense for how long I think it's going to take me and then one or two of the other books I've written have been on an hourly basis because there was that uncertainty there. And I think you've got it you've got to weigh that up. It's It's It's a tricky process, Josh, for sure. Trying to try to, to price a ghostwriting project has How long is a piece of string really? And just make sure during that kind of initial kind of getting to know each other stays that you get a really good sense of, you know, how much how much material you're going to get at the start of the project and how much digging you're gonna have to do because you got to do a lot of digging, then it's gonna take a lot of time.
Josh Steimle
Right? And no matter how many times you do this, every time you do it, it's a new project. It's not like an assembly line of cars coming off of a tight process. This is like inventing a new car every single time.
Rob Tighe
Correct, yeah, and again, that's one of the one of the joys of it as well. I love that kind of the start of a project for you. You're kind of just started To get a feel for what this might look like in your as you go through, it's almost like you're panning for gold; you're kind of filtering through the the the pebbles and the stones to find the nuggets that will form the basis of your story. But yeah, absolutely, as you say, every time is a fresh start, which can be a challenge for some people. I love it. I love starting from scratch and getting to know somebody and drawing the drawing the story out of them.
Josh Steimle
Great. Well, Rob, are there any questions I should have asked that I haven't asked.
Rob Tighe
I don't know. What have we not covered?
Josh Steimle
Anything you wanted to talk about that we haven't talked about yet?
Rob Tighe
One of the one of the key parts of writing a book is is kind of the the final, the final sprint to the finish line. For me, I I took myself off for two weeks and dedicated two weeks to the book solely to the book, I didn't look at any other email, I didn't look at any other parts of my business. And I left my family for two weeks, they went off on holiday somewhere and I got a house and just spent two weeks working from kind of six in the morning till eight o'clock at night just totally focused on that final edit process and making sure that each chapter as I say was as good as it could be. I think if you're going to write a book, then that you know, a couple of weeks of just totally focused work on it is key near the very end, because that will make or break your book. So that was that was a really big learning curve as well from from the first book I did with Tony and one that I've carried through with the other books I've written as well.
Josh Steimle
Last question. Do you have any favorite books about the writing process that you would recommend to other writers?
Rob Tighe
I do. For me, the one that stands out is on writing well by William Zinsser. I think that's how you pronounce it.
Josh Steimle
That's a great one.
Rob Tighe
It's so good. I on the left, I only discovered it about four or five years ago, but it just distill so much practical writing advice in that book, there's like 10 or 12 key takeaways for me. And that's outstanding for anybody at any stage of their writing career, I would pick that up and inhale it, study that and cover so do that and read it from cover to cover because it's there's so much in that.
Josh Steimle
Yeah, and it's not what a lot of people expect. I mean, sometimes you think, oh, a writing book that's gonna be grammar and spelling and word choice. And it's not that kind of book. It's more about the craft of writing and how you keep it simple and how you communicate well, it's it is fantastic.
Rob Tighe
It is and it's definitely you know, it harks back to what you know what I learned when I was reading newspapers as a teenager, you know, journalists really good journalists just get that. I love the simplicity, simplicity and the minimalist style almost have some journalists where I think I heard somebody say recently that sometimes when you're reading a really well-written piece, you're not really aware of the word so much as you're just absorbing the content. And I love that kind of notion where the writing is so so simple, and so pared back and that, you know, almost not aware of it. And yeah, that's the style I aim for with my books as well.
Josh Steimle
Yeah, where are you getting to kind of a state of flow and it's just pure communication.
Rob Tighe
Yeah, correct. Yeah, it's, it's pretty good. I mean, and William Zinsser talks about that. He says, you know, cut out the clutter. You know, the more you can cut clutter out of your writing, the better it will be. It's, it's that classic Strunk and white I think, instruction omit needless words. And that's just for the best advice for any writer ever is, is just go through your work and take out any words that don't add anything.
Josh Steimle
Great. Well, thanks so much for being with us here today. Rob, where's the best place for people to find you if they want to reach out?
Rob Tighe
Yeah, Josh, my website is storybud.co. That's sto or why bu d m story, bud. co. And that's how I'm to my business at the moment. And yeah, thanks for thanks so much for having me.
Josh Steimle
Thank you for coming on. Rob. It's pleasure to talk to you.
Rob Tighe
Thanks Josh. Go well.