New York Times Bestselling Ghostwriter With 60+ Titles
It’s hard to imagine, but some hugely successful authors haven’t always felt confident about their ability to write.
Author and ghostwriter Marcia Layton Turner is one such author. She says that writing wasn’t always her strength.
Yet today Marcia has ghostwritten a New York Times bestseller and more than 60 business books! Clearly she isn’t just your run-of-the-mill freelancer or ghostwriter.
When Marcia finally got to the University of Michigan, she had an “Aha” moment, and realized she could write – really well!
Guest on the latest episode of the Published Author podcast, Marcia discusses her love of writing and how to become an effective ghostwriter with host Josh Steimle.
TOP TAKEAWAY – YOU, TOO, CAN WRITE
“I want to encourage people who feel like they aren't writers, or they don't have that skill, that it's a skill that can be developed,” she tells Josh. “I'm a case in point. I went to high school and did well, but English was my most challenging subject.
Author of The Unofficial Guide to Starting a Small Business, Marcia explains: “I went Wellesley for undergrad, and Wellesley has an interesting policy. For the behavioral sciences, you could choose between taking a final exam and writing a paper. I always wrote the paper, because I wanted to have control, and I wasn't sure that I could find the answer in a two-hour exam.”
With a week to write a paper, Marica did exceptionally well. Over time, she became more confident writing papers. Later, at Michigan Marcia had a pivotal moment while writing for her MBA, realizing: “I can do this!”
WHO YOU GONNA CALL? GHOSTWRITERS!
Marcia explains how ghostwriting works, including the process, the types of clients you may encounter, and the issues you may run into. She knows that some writers may feel put out by not having their name on a book they’ve authored, but she just loves being able to write it!
“Most of my clients are very articulate, they're very bright, they have great ideas, great stories, but they just don't have the time,” she explains. “They have so many other responsibilities and things that they need to be doing.
Marcia’s first experience as a ghostwriter was writing a book about her father, a fine artist. After being approached by editors due to the speed she could produce a book, ghostwriting became her niche.
Some of Marcia’s other books include Vision Boards, The Domino’s Story: How The Innovative Pizza Giant Used Technology To Deliver A Customer Experience, and Selling Your Crafts on Etsy.
In this episode, Marcia goes into detail about ensuring that you always find the ghostwriter who is right for you. She gives pointers on how to find the right ghostwriter, the qualities that you should be looking for, and much more in this engaging interview!
LINKS
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Josh Steimle
Today, our guest is Marcia Layton Turner. Marcia is an author and ghostwriter who works almost exclusively with entrepreneurs, business owners, and CEOs to craft books that help position them as experts, share an idea or an approach, or supplement an existing business or service. She's authored, co-authored, or ghostwritten 60 books about entrepreneurship, leadership, marketing and business management. The majority of those manuscripts have been published by traditional publishers like Wiley, Penguin, HarperCollins and McGraw Hill: although today many of our clients prefer to self-publish in order to speed up the publishing process. When she's not writing business books, she's crafting articles for media outlets like Forbes, Inc, Fast Company, Entrepreneur, and many others. Some of her corporate clients include Prudential, PayPal, Staples, Walmart, and Chase Bank. Marcia, welcome to the show.
Marcia Layton Turner
Thank you so much for having me.
Josh Steimle
So, I'm excited to talk with you because you have experience as an author and as a ghostwriter on a lot of projects. And in fact, I'm not sure how you fit in all these projects into your life. But before we dive into all the ghostwriting, and the other writing, and all that stuff, give us a little glimpse into your life story. How did you get started as a writer and doing all this writing?
Marcia Layton Turner
So, well, I'll try and be concise. But, I think, I want to encourage people who feel like they aren't writers, or they don't have that skill, that it's a skill that can definitely be developed. And I'm a case in point. I went to high school in Delaware, did well, but English was my most challenging subject, you know. They'd say, compare and contrast, like war and peace, and the pearl . . . and ah, just I struggled.
Went to Wellesley for undergrad. Wellesley has an interesting policy. For the Behavioral Sciences, you could choose between taking a final exam and writing a paper. I always wrote the paper, because I wanted to have control, like, I wasn't sure that I could find the answer in a two-hour exam. But if I had a week to write a paper, I’d do great. So I did. And over that time, I became more comfortable with writing papers.
Went straight to Michigan to get my MBA, because I was fascinated with business. And that's really where I had my ‘aha’ moment that, ah, I figured it out. I can do this. Went into marketing at Kodak, where I was then learning how to apply those writing skills to press releases, and articles, and brochures and things like that . . . just learning the business side of writing.
Left after a few years to do business planning for small businesses and some marketing. And there I realized, I really just like the writing, you know . . . I was doing some media placement. And I really just want to write. So I wrote a book for my dad, who was a fine artist. And I just did it because I felt like he could use some guidance, essentially. And once I started having conversations with entrepreneurs about the start up process, an editor found me. An editor at Macmillan, and said, “Hey, Marcia, you've written a book, right?” Yes, I have. Well, I need some help with this book over here. And so that's kind of what got me into the traditional publishing network, by starting to write some books. So I wrote several books and became known as somebody who could do it pretty quickly.
So my agent came to me about 15 years ago and said, “Hey, Marsha, cut this project.” It was McGraw Hill. They had this project that they're really excited about, and they have lots of pre-orders. But the author is seven months behind. Can you just take it and do it? And so I did, and I loved it. I thought this is really fun. I get to interview somebody who's an expert in their field, and then figure out how to best explain their concepts. It was so fun. It's, please, give me more of that. I like that.
So I got a few more projects and then just decided I would try and market myself as a ghostwriter, because I was enjoying it. I continued writing my own books and writing magazine articles. But over the last like five years, I've really started to do more and more ghostwriting. Just honing in on, the types of people that I want to work with, you know, business owners, CEOs, entrepreneurs, just to learn their business stories and their methodologies. So it's been great. But I did not start out as a writer. This is what I hope people will take away. I started out as, you know, if I got to be on a paper, I was thrilled. And now I make a really good income writing. So you can develop this skill if you have the time and the interest.
Josh Steimle
Interesting. Was there a point where you suddenly said you know what? I'm a writer, I didn't realize I was a writer, but I guess I'm a writer.
Marcia Layton Turner
I remember it exactly. It was at University of Michigan. And we had a team project. It was a case study or something. And it just seemed very obvious to me what the issues were and how we should present it. And my teammates were kind of fighting me on it. Okay, whatever, we'll turn it in. I'll probably get a B. And I got an A. I thought wow, I got this. I got this. So yeah, it was really an epiphany.
Josh Steimle
And it's great, isn't it? Because once you're a writer, and you realize, you know, I can do this, and I'm okay at it, you realize how rare that ability is. And people really value that, because then people start coming to you. And they say, “Hey, I don't know how to write. But I've got this idea. And I need to get it out there. Can you help me with this?” And you realize, well, I've got something that I can use to really help people out that they can't do for themselves.
Marcia Layton Turner
Exactly. And I guess I didn't really know how rare that was. When you're struggling with something, or thinking I'm just not very good at this, you assume everyone else is better than you are. And so, I didn't really know that this was a skill that not that many people had. So, yeah.
Josh Steimle
Yeah. Similar experience for me. I mean, I failed my English classes going through junior high and high school. I hated English classes. I always loved reading. And I tried writing a few times as a kid. But, I mean, nobody ever told me how to write something. I didn't even know about outlines or anything. So, I tried to write books, and then I'd get a page or two into it. And it was terrible. And I'd give up. And it wasn't until I was in my 30’s that I got the opportunity to write for Forbes. And then I wrote an article and I thought, well, that was easy. And I liked it. That was so fun. And I didn't even worry about grammar, all that stuff. I just put it through spellcheck and Grammarly, and fixed all that stuff for me. And I realized, I guess I'm a writer too.
Marcia Layton Turner
I have good ideas and I can express them. Yeah.
Josh Steimle
Yeah. Now, for those of us in the audience who don't know that much about ghostwriting, or we might have misconceptions about what a ghostwriter does, explain to us what does a ghostwriter do? What are some of the ideas people have about ghostwriter that may not be quite correct?
Marcia Layton Turner
Sure. A ghostwriter is someone who takes responsibility for producing a document of some kind. They work, they collaborate, really, with a client to figure out how best to express the idea, whether that's in a blog post, an article, a white paper or a book. But it's the ghostwriter who is sort of pulling that information out of the client, and figuring out how to write it up. Ghostwriting, people have misconceptions about it. They think that a ghostwriter might steal their idea, for example. That's not what ghostwriters do. Some people think that it's unethical, that, you know . . . they feel that if someone else is writing a book, for example, that their name should be on it. And honestly, not all my clients want my name on their book, because it's their ideas, it’s their experiences. I really shouldn't get credit for that. So yeah, ghostwriter is an anonymous helper to craft a book or an article or a blog post, and they don't get credit.
Josh Steimle
Which goes back to that skill. There are some people for whom writing comes very easily. And it's a gift, or it's something that they've developed over time. And there are other people who have ideas, but they don't have that ability to write their ideas out. And that's where the ghostwriter can come in, right, to help out with that?
Marcia Layton Turner
Absolutely. But I will say too, most of my clients are very articulate. They're very bright. They have great ideas, great stories. They just don't have the time, Josh. They have so many other responsibilities and things that they need to be doing. And they've, many of them have wanted to write a book for a long time. And they just haven't been able to carve out the time. And so that's where people like me can come in and say, “Don't worry about it. Let's set aside time, you know, once a week, we'll talk. I'll gather the information. And then I'll take responsibility for going away and drafting some chapters for you.” And that makes more sense for them because they can stay doing, you know, their day job essentially. And in the background, they can be writing a book.
Josh Steimle
So when you meet with a new client for the first time, how do you explain the process to them? What do you say? Hey, this is what we're going to be doing? This is what you should expect? This is how long it will take?
Marcia Layton Turner
Some clients think they're going to be able to give me a title, and I'm going to go away and produce 70,000 words. And not many recently, but once in a while, that that's really not how it works. It is a partnership of sorts. So the process begins with an idea. A client wants to write a book on a particular topic. Sometimes they have an idea for a title. And that's really helpful for just positioning in my own mind, what are we going to be focusing on? Once we have the title, and then we start talking through what is the scope of this project? What are the key messages? What are the key stories? How far do you want to take this? And then that becomes our outline or a table of contents.
For a business book, that's generally like 10 or 15 chapters. You have an intro. Sometimes you have an epilogue. So we use that as our guide. Then from my process, or at least my preferred process, we then schedule time on a weekly basis to talk through each chapter. So, you know, Wednesdays at 11am could be our time slot, where for an hour, 60 to 90 minutes, we'll talk, and I'll ask a lot of questions. So my client doesn't have to come prepared with anything other than what were you thinking of explaining on this topic of digital marketing, for example? Just talk me through that.
I'm taking notes, sometimes I'm recording. And then after the end of that call, they can hang up, and go away, and go back to their job. And then I start drafting the chapter. The first chapter, I really spend a lot of time on with the client, to make sure that it expresses their message in the style and the tone that they want. And that's really what differentiates a ghostwriter from an author. I'll just take a little sidebar. A ghostwriter is someone who can write in someone else's voice. So when I write, if I were writing a book for a client, I want it to sound like them, not like me. So that first chapter of the book . . . really sets us up as sort of a template for future chapters.
So once we finalize that, and the client says, “Yes, this, I'm happy with this. This is good.” Then we move on to chapter two, chapter three, just very methodically through the rest of the chapters. Once that's done, we circle back to the introduction. Since the introduction explains to the reader, here's what you're going to see in this book. I always like to do it last, once I have a better sense of exactly what's going to be covered. Then we go through two rounds of edits back and forth, just making additions, moving things around, polishing, and then it's ready to be handed off to the publisher, whether that's a traditional publisher, or an independent, or hybrid publisher, whatever is happening to it next. That's where it goes.
Josh Steimle
Are there situations where the arrangement is different? For example, somebody might come to you with an almost finished manuscript and say, “I just need help polishing this up and getting it across the finish line,” versus the other person who says, I've got an idea. Where do I go from here?
Marcia Layton Turner
Yeah, good question. Some people do have drafts. It's kind of rare that the book is already 90% there. And I don't do a lot of editing anymore. I did in the beginning. But now I know that I really enjoy just starting from scratch and helping to shape the manuscript. So I personally wouldn't get involved in editing. But I have many colleagues who are great at it, and I rely on. So I would refer them to better editors really.
Josh Steimle
What's an ideal client look like for you? Because it is different for every ghostwriter, right? I mean, you have your preferences, other ghostwriters have their preferences. What type of work do you really prefer to do? What do you get the biggest buzz out of?
Marcia Layton Turner
I love working with entrepreneurs, business owners, CEOs on more service books, like how to books; not theoretical, but very highly practical books. So those are the types of projects that I look for, you know. Somebody maybe who has a platform, and who wants to now put their information, the speeches that they've been doing down in book form. I like people who are decisive. They know what they want. So we can move ahead pretty quickly. I like fast-paced books, meaning people who have a deadline that's coming up pretty soon. I think that allows us both to really focus and get it done. Clients who say, oh, I don't really have a deadline, you know, a couple years from now, probably not a good fit for me, because I'm going to get impatient.
Josh Steimle
Right, because you want to get this project done. You want to get it out there just like they do. Right?
Marcia Layton Turner
Right. And there can be problems, once in a while, when a client, when you write a draft, and the client goes away to review it and doesn't come back for six months. You've kind of moved on at that point. And you have to really then become familiar with the manuscript again. And it's a little bit time consuming. So, it's really for me, I just like keeping it moving.
Josh Steimle
What are some of the red flags that you see with potential clients before you sign them up, where you say yeah, I don't know. I mean, this looks like a fit. But there's this thing, I don't know.
Marcia Layton Turner
I think clients who come in saying, this is a New York Times bestseller if I ever saw one, you know, help me make this the bestseller that it is destined to be.
Josh Steimle
As though you have a formula for doing that.
Marcia Layton Turner
As if it's up to me, Josh. And I have to sort of reset the expectation there, see if it can be recalibrated and explain, like, here are the things that you need to have in place to have a best seller. I'm not sure that you're there yet. We can produce a great book that people are going to give it high marks. But how many you sell I have no control over that. So that makes me nervous, just because I don't want to disappoint anybody. I don't want them coming in expecting Marcia is going to help me write a New York Times bestseller. I have written them.
But again, it was not up to me. It really was more due to the clients’ work, people who I generally don't find this out until we get into the project. And it hasn't happened very often at all, but clients who are unwilling to listen to my advice. I'm not suggesting that I always know exactly what to do. But when I work with a client, and the client says, you know what he thinks, should we go this way or that way? And I'll say, “You know what? Based on what I've seen here, I go that way, and here's why.” You know, do what you want, but it's just he, I work with a lot of men, might say, yeah, I'm going to do it my way. You know, we'll go this way. And if this keeps happening, I start to wonder, do you respect my opinion? Am I adding value here? It’s just so . . .
Josh Steimle
Yeah. What am I doing here? Why do you hire me if [00:16:47 Inaudible]?
Marcia Layton Turner
Exactly. But I had one, years and years ago, I was doing some PR work for a client. And I made some recommendations, said, like this is a new product launch. And I really think we should do this. And he said, yeah, I don't want to do that. I want to do this other thing. I said, “I really wouldn't. This is important. You really need to do it this way.” And then, of course, he did it his way. And then was irritated with me for not forcing him to do it my way. I am not going to force you. So, and look for people who are open to listening to me. I don't expect them to always take my advice. But if you never take my advice . . . I just, I don't feel as good about the process.
Josh Steimle
Yeah. Now you have had some books that have become quite successful. Can you share some of the success case studies with us?
Marcia Layton Turner
I have a client who has written a couple books. The first book was written when they were starting out, started their company. And they were using it as a sort of a leave behind, or as a, just a brochure for their company. The book did very well. And it really launched their company. So when they came back around for the second book, they had a huge, like, really splashy client base they could refer to. They had a huge list, which they didn't have in the first one, who were willing to invest a lot of money in the book. And so it became a New York Times bestseller, because they had built their platform. They had an audience that was really excited to read whatever else they were going to come up with. And it did really well.
Wrote another book for an international company that hadn't really been covered. And it sold millions of copies. And I think most of the books that I've written recently, the clients came in not expecting or asking for it to be a bestseller. They just wanted something they could be proud of, that would explain their process, and that they could kind of use as a brochure. And I know one client last year, shortly after the book was delivered, he used it to get Google as a client, like $30,000 contract almost immediately. And he said . . . I couldn't have done this without this book. So those are the types of clients that I really enjoy helping. It's so fulfilling to hear you got value from that. You know, not only were you happy with it, but it's getting you a business.
Josh Steimle
When you see a book that you wrote, sell millions of copies, is there any part of you that feels like, oh, I wish my name were on that, or I wish I could publicly take credit for that?
Marcia Layton Turner
Sometimes, but I'm okay with being in the background. It's okay. I have my book, my name on a lot of books. I don't feel the need to put it on others. If a client really wants to put it there, if they think it adds credibility, I am fine with that. But no, I'm okay with it.
Josh Steimle
So how much does it cost for somebody to hire you? I imagine a member of our audience saying, hey, I'm a CEO. I will write a how-to book. I'm the ideal client for Marcia. But how much does she cost?
Marcia Layton Turner
Well, I cost, I say, an average of $30 to $35,000. Some books are less, because they're shorter. You know, someone wanted an e-book of 10,000 words, that's not going to cost $30,000. On the flip side, if somebody wanted an 80,000-word manuscript, that's probably going to cost a little bit more simply because of the length and the time required. I would say that I'm probably average in terms of cost for ghostwriters. There are ghostwriters who will charge $10 or $20,000 for a book. They're generally a little bit less experienced, don't have a track record, and they're looking, they're hungry for a project. And they can be a great choice, if you have a little flexibility.
And then there are people who are minimum $60, $75,000 for a book. They generally have had their name on a bestselling book and can point to that. And there's some who get, you know, $100,000, and more. I've gotten $100,000 for a book. But that's not typical as an average.
Josh Steimle
And that might sound crazy to people. But on the other side, you might be dedicating a year of your life to writing this book. I mean, we're talking about a year's salary.
Marcia Layton Turner
Exactly. And that particular book did take more than a year. And it was all me, you know, I was primarily responsible for it. And the client was off, earning money. And then again, once the book was out, this is a really useful marketing tool that I'm sure generated much more than I can guarantee, right, more than $100,000 in business for that client.
Josh Steimle
And it's not as though you're working on 10 books at a time or something. How many projects can you take on at once?
Marcia Layton Turner
I think the most I've ever had at one time is four. And they were at different stages. So I might have one that's just getting started, where maybe just talking through the outline. And I have one where we're starting to write. Another where we're almost done. And then a fourth, that's in editing, so much less time. I don't think I could ever do more than that. And generally, I'm doing like two or three at a time.
Josh Steimle
So if I'm an author out there, or an aspiring author, and I'm thinking I'd love to work with Marcia, but is there any way I can get that price down? Is there any preparation I can do, or anything that I can come to her with, so that we can still work together? But maybe do it for a little bit less?
Marcia Layton Turner
Yeah, good question. I think the things that I'm accounting for when I put together a quote is the timeline. If you want it fast, like super fast, like in a month, I have to charge more, because I'm not going to do anything else, but your book. So if you give me a little bit more time, that helps. If you come with research in hand . . . Sometimes most business books require some level of research, whether it's studies, research, or reports, case studies, things like that. If we're just getting started and telling the story, and you're telling me the types of research I'm going to have to go out and get, that's time consuming. And it costs me money because I actually rely on a professional researcher to gather that. So if you come to me and say this chapter is about this, and here are all the reports, and let me just, you know, hand them to you, that saves time and money. Those are really the biggest things: time and providing the research. If you're prepared, and we can get going on this, I have a little more flexibility in my price.
Josh Steimle
You said that a shorter book will be cheaper for ghostwriting than a longer book. But there's that saying from Abraham Lincoln, “I would have written you a shorter letter, but I didn't have the time.” I mean, sometimes writing a short book means more time crafting it, and getting it just right, and cutting out the fluff. So how does that work out?
Marcia Layton Turner
That's a really good point. And I'm thinking of articles that I've written recently. I'll do a first draft and it's 2,000 words, and then I realize the editor wanted 1,000. And so then, it takes me more time to sort of cut back, excuse me, the extraneous material to get down to 1,000. When I know going in, that I'm writing an e-book of say 10,000 words, then I can better gauge how much detail to provide in each chapter. So it does take me less time when I know in advance that's what I'm doing. If a client came back and said, oh, you know that 30,000 word, let's make it 10. That's a chore.
Josh Steimle
Then it actually does become more work to make it shorter.
Marcia Layton Turner
Right. But if you start off knowing this is the length I'm working towards, and I know oh, that it's 10,000 words and it's 10 chapters, that's about 1,000 words a chapter, I need about this much material, like I can do that.
Josh Steimle
So where can people find good ghostwriters? I know I look at Readz, and I know there's some other websites out there. But as a ghostwriter, where are the places that you would recommend people search for ghostwriters if they're looking to hire one?
Marcia Layton Turner
Well, it's going to sound funny, but start by Googling. Just see what names come up. I wouldn't say go, based on, but Google ghostwriter or Google business book ghostwriter, if that's what you want, or whatever type of book you're thinking of. Just take note of what names are at the top. I run the Association of Ghostwriters, which I started about 10 years ago, because I noticed that many of my colleagues and I were doing book ghostwriting, and there really wasn't any way for us to officially network.
So the Association of Ghostwriters has a, find a ghostwriter service, I guess we'll say. It's free. If you go to the homepage of associationofghostwriters.org, and you fill out the little form to tell me what kind of book it is, what your deadline is, any kind of experience you want, then I will share it with the professional members of the organization to see who's available, who's interested, who can fit the budget. And I hear from many people who use the service that they're very happy with the quality of people who come through there. And we have some publishers who also use it and they've said the same thing. You know, Marcia, wow, the people that I got from you really were good, like my best candidates came from the Association of Ghostwriters.
So, it's a free service, I get nothing from it. But it's a good way to connect with people I know, who are good ghostwriters. The ASJA (American Society of Journalists and Authors) is also a top-quality organization. Not everybody there is a ghostwriter, though. It's really more of a general writing organization. But they also have a, I’m trying to remember what the . . . it used to be called the writer referral service. But asja.org has a way to connect with writers. And you may even be able to search the member directory to see who's doing ghostwriting there. It's a small percentage, but they're good people.
You mentioned Readz. I think Readz is great. The one thing to keep in mind is that they tack on a 20% commission on the client, and they take 20% from me the ghostwriter. So it gets kind of expensive.
Josh Steimle
Yeah, that adds quite a bit, 40%.
Marcia Layton Turner
It does. And I've lost clients because of that, unfortunately, because I can't, once they come to me through Readz, I can't like, go off the platform. I have to stay with them. That's only the ethical thing to do. We have to work through Readz. But that sort of prices me out of the competition if they're also finding people who are not on Readz, and they're 40% less, you know.
Josh Steimle
Yeah.
Marcia Layton Turner
Yeah. So I'd say those are really some of the good ones. Now there are agencies like Kevin Anderson & Associates. It's a ghostwriting agency, and they will help put together the whole book. Gotham Ghostwriters. They are really good at speech writing I know. I think that’s Dan Gerstein's background . . . speech writing, but they also have some great ghostwriters. You can also work with hybrid presses like Jenkins Group and Greenleaf Book Group. They'll again put the whole book together, and one piece of that is the ghostwriter. So they'll take care of sort of finding people for you. So they're out there. Just be careful and make sure you're looking, or you find people who have done this before.
Josh Steimle
Now, what are some of the other tips for hiring the right ghostwriter? I mean, you want to look at the previous experience. What are some of the other basic things somebody should do when going out to hire a ghostwriter?
Marcia Layton Turner
Well, because ghostwriters can't always talk about their clients by name or list the titles that they've worked on, it's really helpful if they have someone that they can refer you to who will verify their claims, because I could make up a whole bunch of stuff. And it would be difficult for somebody to verify it, except that I have agents and editors who can do that. So just ask. Do you have an agent? Have you worked with other publishers? Can I check with them to talk with them? If you have clients who are willing, from the client perspective, ask if there are clients that they can talk to about the process of working with the ghostwriter. You just want to be sure that they actually had the experience that they claimed to have.
I think asking questions about their process, just like we talked about how I work on a book, make sure they're clear about that. If they stumble, that might suggest to me that they haven't done that very often if they're not really clear about how they would do the work or how they have done the work. I think chemistry . . . that was probably the most important thing for the client to keep in mind as they're interviewing different ghostwriters, just pay attention to how much they're enjoying the conversation. Because that's what a lot of the work is going to be from the client side . . . is conversations and interviews about their work and about their interests.
So make sure that you're confident in the person you're speaking with, and that you like them. Because I would hate to think that a client is dreading talking to me, or, you know, just doesn't want to talk with me. So, clients, just pay attention. Do you like the person? That's really big. Once you know that they can do the work, do you want them to do the work? That's kind of the next question.
Josh Steimle
So I'm curious. Have you ever run into a client where you started working with them, and they had the writing skills or the ability to write the book themselves and you thought, you really should be writing this yourself? This will be more you. It will be a better project if you just write this yourself? Or do you feel like that's what makes a good ghostwriter, is being able to really match that voice and write it as good as they would have written it themselves?
Marcia Layton Turner
I think many people could write books. And the scenario you provided . . . I'm trying to remember if I've ever had that conversation. I might have had that thought, and kind of asked why aren't you writing this? But typically, the answer comes down to time. Again, somebody could have great notes and a great idea. And they just maybe aren't disciplined enough to set aside the time for themselves to draft the book. And they need a ghostwriter urging them on or asking questions to get it done. And sometimes we're too close. I mean, this is true of many of my projects. I'm so close to the content that I can't tell what's really interesting, and what really doesn't need to be there. So your ghostwriter can guide you and help you make decisions about the level of detail. So I don't know that I'd ever say that to somebody unless it was a memoir, which I don't do. Like a memoir. If somebody had written something, it was already so well done, I could see someone saying you don't need me. You just need an editor.
Josh Steimle
One thing that I'm guessing might come up is you get partway through a project and somebody runs out of money perhaps. Do you ever run into billing situations that are difficult to deal with? Or people coming back and saying, hey, you want to be my co-author on this, so I don't have to pay you, or other interesting scenarios like that?
Marcia Layton Turner
I have a lot of people who come to me and say, Marcia, I have the next bestseller. And I'm willing to give you a cut if you help me with it. You know, we can split the royalties are 60/40, 50/50, maybe. And I have to explain the financials of the publishing industry. And so for people who aren't aware of this, I'm sure you are, Josh, many books don't earn out their advance. So when you get a traditional book publishing contract, you are given an advance against royalties, which means we think it's going to sell at least 10,000 copies. That's often the threshold. And if you can sell 10,000 copies, then we'll start to pay you on a per book basis for those books sold. And it's generally around like $1 a book. So once you sell 10,000 copies, $1a book, but most books, I don't know what the numbers are, but very few ever hit 10,000 copies, which means that splitting royalties, they're going to be zero royalties. So we're splitting zero.
And that's why it just doesn't make sense for a ghostwriter to accept that even if we love the concept of the book. But we're going to spend months working on this project. And we need to have money upfront. Just like a lawyer or an accountant. We need to be paid for the work that's going to be involved, no matter what happens on the back end. So yeah, I get a lot of those propositions. And I just have to say, “No, it doesn't work.” But billing wise, I don't know that I've ever had any client not pay their bill. And I spread it out over several milestones.
So I'm never asking for anybody to pay a huge amount upfront. I generally asked for something to get started to secure my time, like 10% down. And then once we've developed the outline, like to get paid again. Once we write the first chapter, I asked for it again. And then sometimes we'll do 25, 50, 75 and 100. And then at the end of the editing. Some clients want to in fewer payments, like maybe three or four. But I try and offer as many as possible so that the client can see that they're getting work every time they're writing a check. And . . . it's not as painful to write huge checks.
Josh Steimle
If you have a client who wants to get a traditional publishing deal, is that something that you help them with? Do you help them write a query letter or help connect them to an agent or a publisher or anything like that?
Marcia Layton Turner
I don't love writing proposals, quite honestly. I've done a bunch of them. But I don't love that process. So my ideal client either already has a traditional contract, or wants to publish it themselves through an independent or hybrid publisher. So I will help with a query letter. I have an agent, and I'm happy to connect people with my agent if I think it's something that he'd be interested in. But I don't want to write the proposal.
Josh Steimle
You just want to write the book.
Marcia Layton Turner
I just want to write the book. Yeah, yeah, just like, let's get on with it. And this probably goes back to my fear of letting the client down. We could spend a lot of time on a book proposal, which can cost anywhere from $5 to $15,000, depending upon who you're working with. That's a big chunk of change. And I can't guarantee that this book is going to get sold. It's really out of my hands. And so I feel guilty, I guess, asking for a lot of money when I don't know that it's going to actually result in a contract. So that's why I've kind of backed away from writing them.
Josh Steimle
You mentioned that many of your clients now are turning more to self- publishing, rather than going after traditional deals. And why is that? What are the pros and cons of self-publishing versus traditional publishing?
Marcia Layton Turner
I think they, some clients come to me in the hopes of getting a traditional book deal. And that's because when you have a traditional deal, sometimes you get an advance. Today, it's pretty small. But the typical advances like $5,000 maybe. If you have a big platform, you're going to get more, but you get an advance. And then you have a publisher, who is going to take care of all the production costs. So all the layout, the editing, printing, that's . . . you don't have to pay for that. And that's a big advantage.
The downside of that, however, is that you lose some level of control. I had a client once, who was shown a proposed cover, and they didn't like it. But it was really not their choice. They had to go with the publisher’s choice, because the publisher was writing the checks.
The other downside, besides control, is timeline. And this is really why more people are making the shift. A traditional contract, if you were today to start marketing a book proposal, if you got a contract, it would probably be towards the end of the year or the beginning of 2021. Once you get started on writing the book, you're going to have nine to 12 months to do that. Then once you turn it in, and production starts, that means your book is probably going to be out in 2022, maybe fall of 2022.
Josh Steimle
So hopefully, you're not writing something that's really tech heavy, or an industry that's changing quickly, because it'll be outdated by the time it's published.
Marcia Layton Turner
And that's exactly why fewer people are going the traditional route. When you self-publish, or work with an independent publisher, you have a lot more control over the timeline. I'm a fast writer. So once we figure out what we're going to do, you know, I can get this done in two or three months, and then hand it off. And production is going to be four to eight weeks, depending upon the printing technology that they're using. It can be out in like, from today, first quarter 2021. And like you said, for the people who are writing technology books, they can't wait until 2022. Even if they offered updates on the website, which is sometimes what people do, it's going to be out of date. It's going to be out of date by next year, even before they go to print.
So that's why people, on the hybrid or independent side, you pay up front for production. You're going to pay a ghostwriter either way. That's no different. You do not have to pay for a book proposal. So you have savings there. And you pay for the lay out, the editing, the creative side and for the printing. You can control those costs somewhat by having a smaller print run to begin with, just, you know, not having 10,000 copies printed all at once. Your printable cost is going to be really small if you do that, but you're going to have to write a bigger check. So it's really for the speed. That's why people do it. If they have the money, and they just don't have the time, you know, that's why they're hiring me to begin with. They just don't have the time. And if they don't want to wait, maybe they're speaking at a conference next year. A traditional book deal is just not going to work.
Josh Steimle
Gotcha. What percentage of books do you think are ghostwritten, I mean, business books by CEOs, entrepreneurs? How many of these people are actually writing the books themselves versus hiring a ghostwriter to help them with the process?
Marcia Layton Turner
Within that? Yeah, within that market, I think it's probably pretty high. I've seen general numbers about bestsellers being somewhere between 50 to 80% ghostwritten. But on the business side, because of the clientele, I'd guess would be closer to 80 to 90%. I don't know for sure. But just look at who the authors are. They don't have the time.
Josh Steimle
Yeah, these are extremely busy people, right?
Marcia Layton Turner
They're busy people, but they don't, they just need help getting it on paper. They have the ideas. They know what they're doing. They're smart. They just need somebody to get it down on paper in a polished way.
Josh Steimle
Well, Marcia, this has been great to talk to you and get all this information about the ghostwriting process and how to work with ghostwriters. Is there anything else that we haven't discussed that you've been wanting to share, any last words of wisdom for us?
Marcia Layton Turner
I can't think of anything. You've asked a lot of great questions, Josh. And hopefully, people have a good sense of what the process is and why they might want to work with a ghostwriter. If you can write your own book, you've had the time, you know what you want to say, and you're a good writer, you don't need a ghostwriter. You just don't. But if you have other things going on in your life, other things you want to do, or you know that a ghostwriter is going to help you get it done faster, I think those are the situations where I have a lot of clients coming to me.
Josh Steimle
Great. Thank you so much for being with us here today, Marcia.
Marcia Layton Turner
My pleasure.
Josh Steimle
And thank you for all the advice that you've shared with us.
Marcia Layton Turner
Happy to share. Thank you.