She's Interviewing 25 Fortune 500 Executives For Her Book
We hear lots from and about CEOs, CFOs, and CIOs. In fact, we probably don’t need to write out these acronyms.
But what about the CSO? That’s chief sustainability officer, just in case you didn’t. Looking at the headlines these days, we probably need to hear more.
So it’s great that Chrissa Pagitsas has decided to write a book based on interviews with chief sustainability offers. The target release date is early 2022.
Chrissa is a globally recognized thought leader at the intersection of environmental, social, and governance (ESG) and sustainability issues in Fortune 500 companies. She was also the VP of Environment, Social, and Governance (ESG) with Fannie Mae.
BOOK DESIGNED TO SHARE SUSTAINABILITY MESSAGE
Chrissa was motivated to write her book by something that will resonate with many entrepreneurs. She wanted to share knowledge—and that of CSOs—with others who were set to embark on building a large business dedicated to sustainability.
Chrissa says: “I was coming up to my 10-year anniversary at Fannie Mae. I've been working in sustainability and finance at the intersection of green building for quite some time, about 20 years.
“There was something that I wanted to share with others, I wanted to talk about what it was like to build a large business dedicated to sustainability, with of course, environmental outcomes, positive outcomes,” she explains.
First up, Chrssa encountered the big question many authors face: How would she write this book? Like other writers, she began to talk to people, including professors, authors, and people in the field.
PLANNING A BOOK? FIRST LOOK AT THE COMPETITION
One of the pieces of advice that Chrissa received: “Look at the competition, look at what else is out there.”
She did just that and discovered Published Author host Josh Steimle’s book, Chief Marketing Officers At Work, published by Apress in 2015.
Chrissa tells Josh: “I came across one of your blogs about interviewing for your book. And you gave rich descriptions on how to do it.”
Chriss also discovered that the perspective of CSOs was missing. “I put together a book proposal and reached out to Apress, and they said: ‘Well, you should talk to Josh because he wrote a book about this’.”
When Chrissa was ready to begin, she submitted a proposal and Apress responded immediately, saying they wanted to work with her.
IMPORTANT ADVICE FOR A WRITER
Chrissa came away with two important pieces of advice from Josh’s blog.
Be Organized
“One of your blogs referenced having a spreadsheet where you kept track of who you had talked to, when they had submitted the release form, and so on,” says Chrissa. “For any writer when you are working with so many ideas and moving parts, you do need to keep track. Having a system gives you more freedom to actually work out your ideas.
Just Go For It!
Next up, Chrissa appreciated the fact that Josh encourages people to simply begin.
“I think the advice to reach out to people via LinkedIn or just just ask, because you don't know if someone's going to say yes or no. So you might as well ask.”
Chrissa was also inspired by the fact that Josh emphasized not becoming frozen if things aren’t perfect.
“If you don't write the perfect paragraph or you don’t know the right person. You have to do a draft, and then you’ll refine it. Or you’ll make a new contact, and perhaps that will lead somewhere,” says Chrissa.
FINDING INTERVIEW SUBJECTS
Says Chrissa: “I've started interviewing. Some interviews are through my network, some of the CSOs are people that I already know. And some have been friends of friends in my network. I've scheduled about seven or eight, and I've already conducted five of the interviews.”
Chrissa’s list of CSO’s is impressive. They include Bea Perez, the chief Sustainability Officer at Coca-Cola; Jim Gowen, CSO at Verizon, Katherine Neebe at Duke Energy and Virginie Hélias at US Procter and Gamble. Fascinating conversations there.
If you intend to write a book based on interviews, Chrissa recommends exploring your own network first, and then asking your network for recommendations. These are the best ways of securing interviews.
She’s encountered two obstacles since starting her interviews. The first is that in conducting an interview, during which an executive might tell a really great story, but it needs a few more sentences for context for the reader.
Chrissa explains: “I've found that doing the follow up to fill in those two or three sentences is a little bit challenging, because the only person who can really fill that in is the CSO. And I really should only expect them to review the final chapter versus ‘Oh, can I ask you one more thing?’. So that's where in the course of the interviews, if I realize immediately that I need two more sentences, then I need to interrupt and say, could you give me two more words about what this or that was and then I'll retro fit the paragraph afterwards.
“Going back to an executive after the interview is not the best use of their time, not efficient.”
The second challenge has to do with transcripts. Some of the interviews are 35 to 45 minutes long. Chrissa is getting the interviews transcribed, yet they come back pretty raw. The flow needs to be corrected and some paragraphs need to be re-ordered.
“I've found that finding the two to three hours that I need to just think through a transcript in one big chunk has been challenging.”
LINKS
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Josh Steimle
Today my guest is Chrissa Pagitsas. Chrissa is a globally recognized thought leader at the intersection of environmental, social and governance or ESG, which we might refer to during the episode and sustainability issues in Fortune 500 companies, so she's got her genius zone all worked out there. With Chrissa the helm Fannie Mae launched its enterprise ESG strategy Carissa also launched and grew Fannie Mae's multifamily green financing business portfolio to more than $51 billion in 2018, making Fannie Mae, the largest issuer of green bonds in the world since 2017. Chrissa is also responsible for market transforming innovations in the financing industry, such as creating the green MBS, or mortgage-backed security, and launching green mortgage loan products. creaser regularly advises international and domestic policymakers on issues related to green bonds, ESG, and mortgage finance. She initiated and led the creation of the US Environmental Protection Agency's ENERGY STAR score, and the EPA water score for multifamily properties across the US. And Chrissa is currently working on her first book, Chief Sustainability Officers at work. Chrissa, welcome to the show.
Chrissa Pagitsas
Thanks for having me, Josh. Excited to be here.
Josh Steimle
So this is going to be a fun conversation. Just to give the audience a little bit of background of how we connected. So Chrissa reached out to me because she's working with the publisher, Apress, which was the publisher I went to for my first book, which was Chief Marketing Officers at work. And so if I remember correctly, they told you, hey, you can reach out to Josh, he wrote one of these books in the series. And now you're writing one of these books in the series. So why don't you talk with him? And maybe that will be helpful for some of your journey? Was that kind of how it happened?
Chrissa Pagitsas
Yes, that's exactly how it happened. This journey, it really has been a journey, Josh. It really started in early 2020. So pre pandemic, if you can believe it, or not . . .
Josh Steimle
A different world back then.
Chrissa Pagitsas
A completely different world, . . . where I was coming up to my 10-year anniversary at Fannie Mae. So I've been working in sustainability and in finance, and in this intersection of green building for quite some time, about 20 years. And the last 10 of it has been at Fannie Mae. And as I was coming up to this 10 year anniversary, Josh, there was something that I wanted to share with others, I wanted to talk about what it was like to build a large business dedicated to sustainability, with of course, environmental outcomes, positive outcomes. And so early 2020, I decided to figure out, I'd like to write a book. And I began to start thinking, how am I going to write this book. And I started talking to people, I started talking to professors at the Darden School of Business where I'd gotten my MBA, I started talking to other authors. And one of the pieces of advice that I got was, look at the competition, actually. Look at what else is out there. And as I was researching and trying to work a book proposal together, I actually came across your book, not because you're doing sustainability, but because you were interviewing executives. And that trigger for me the idea, the voice of chief sustainability officers at Fortune 500 companies, is missing. Can you believe that? That's actually the link between us two is thinking about executives and a missing voice. And that was actually the . . .
Josh Steimle
The book rather than the publisher first that connected us?
Chrissa Pagitsas
Yes. Actually, the book, not actually the book.
Josh Steimle
So were you just doing a search for like, how to interview executives or something? or How did you come across it?
Chrissa Pagitsas
So I actually started, I was looking for tips on interviewing executives, because while I am an executive or former executive of Fannie Mae, I didn't feel the whole book could be about me. And about one executive voice you want you want a chorus, you want a lot of people's perspective. And I think I came across one of your blogs, Josh, about interviewing for your book. And you gave quite a lot of rich descriptions on how to do it. And I thought to myself, well, one, Josh is great. And so I definitely would love to meet him one day, and here we are. But this perspective of CSOs, chief sustainability officers, is missing. And so I put together a second book proposal and reached out to Apress about it, and they said, Well, you should talk to Josh because he wrote a book about this. CMOS, though not CSOs.
Josh Steimle
That's great. So here we are, we're chatting about it. Now. What stage are you at in your book right now.
Chrissa Pagitsas
So I have, you know . . . feel very lucky that Apress responded right away and said, yes, they wanted to work on this book with me. And so I'm through the contract with the publisher, Apress. And I've actually started interviewing. I've done . . . some are through my network. Some of the CSOs are people that I already know. And some have been friends of friends in my network. And I've scheduled about seven or eight interviews, and already conducted five of the interviews.
Josh Steimle
And what has it been like so far? Was my advice helpful in any way? Or totally different from what I made it sound like?
Chrissa Pagitsas
Well, it's interesting. One, yes, your advice very helpful. Um, I think particularly in I remember some one of your . . . one particular sentence or two and one of your blogs was about, it was hard for you to listen. Because the conversations were so stimulating. And so interesting, you wanted to ask immediately, you know, a follow up question or interject the statement. And I found the same thing, Josh, is that in these interviews, I really have to listen, and have a whole story come out, that might be a minute or two long in the story, rather than me jumping in saying, Oh, me too, or Yes, that's amazing. Because when I had this experience, it was this way. So your feedback on that is something that I actually keep in mind every time I do one of these interviews, so thank you.
Josh Steimle
It's the same with this podcast, I'm always wanting to jump in. And I'm just like, No, just let him talk. Because that's the most interesting stuff anyway. But it's hard, because I want to have like a natural normal conversation. And sometimes it's hard to do that.
Chrissa Pagitsas
You have to listen, and in some ways have an unnatural conversation for the interview to flow naturally.
Josh Steimle
Exactly.
Chrissa Pagitsas
You know, kind of funny, I think two other pieces of advice that you gave, which I think is useful for any writer, I think, but also I think for any entrepreneur, I think one is be organized. Another one of your blogs referenced, you know, having a spreadsheet where you kept track of, you know, who who you had talked to when they had submitted the release form, and so on. And I'm a naturally organized person, I'm a financial services person. So numbers and spreadsheets are my game. But I think for any writer, you are working with so many ideas and moving parts, that you do need to keep track and a having system allows you more freedom to actually work out your ideas. So I think that's another great piece of advice. And then I think the third one, Josh is going for it. I don't know that you use those exact words. But I think it was the advice to reach out to people via LinkedIn or just just ask. You don't know if someone's gonna say yes or no. So you might as well ask. And I think that what I call that is a bias to action. It comes from another book that has been very influential for me, but but you echoed that, which is just move forward. Don't get frozen about things not being perfect, not having the right paragraph, not knowing the person. You have to do a draft and then you'll refine it, you'll make a contact and maybe that'll lead nowhere, but the next one will lead somewhere. I think those three pieces Josh have been very influential.
Josh Steimle
Thank you. So who are some of the people if you can give us a sneak peek? Who are some of the names or some of the companies from which you're able to get interviews?
Chrissa Pagitsas
No, it's been great. I'm thrilled to have interviewed Bea Perez, who's the chief Sustainability Officer at Coca-Cola, Jim Gowen, CSO at Verizon, Katherine Neebe at Duke Energy. Fascinating conversations there. Virginie Hélias at US Procter and Gamble. So as you can see, Josh, very, pretty big, pretty big names, but also very different industries, right? Procter and Gamble, consumer packaged goods, then you've got Coca Cola, beverages to Verizon, telecommunicator, telecommunications, and then you've got Duke Energy, energy and power, right powering the Northeast seaboard. So that has been a very interesting and exciting part for me, which has been where are their experiences as executives, senior executives at Fortune 500 companies similar, and where have they been different? And their journeys to becoming CSOs have all been very different too.
Josh Steimle
I saw that in my book, too. People keep asking, oh, so what's the key to becoming the chief marketing officer? I said, based on the 30 interviews I did, there is no key because I think maybe two of them went to marketing school or something. And all the rest came through these weird journeys, where you'd say, that is the weirdest thing. I mean, like somebody was like a goat farmer or something. And then they become the CMO. And you're like, where's the connection there?
Chrissa Pagitsas
Well, I think what's interesting, Josh, about the CSO career path is that you have to have something called fortitude. And this is been something that I've been thinking about, even about my career, where 10 years at Fannie Mae is, you know, a long time and many companies. But many of these, if not all of them have had 10 to 20 years if not more at their companies. And I think the reason why fortitude is important, particularly for a CSO is that many of the changes that they're putting in place are long term changes, right? sustainability for maybe Josh, if you're not familiar with the area or some of your listeners, sustainability is thinking about how you can have a positive environmental impact, while of course, still making money having positive revenue, reducing risk, right. So ideally, what your your outcome as a business is good for the environment, good for business, good for the community. But making all of those things happen, particularly the environmental side and the community side, are not a impact that you see on a quarter by quarter basis. Right, it's impact that can take two years, five years, even 10 years, and all of these CSOs have had the fortitude to stay to set really ambitious sustainability goals, and then to execute over a multi year period. That is actually a similarity that I've seen in in many of them.
Josh Steimle
That's interesting. What is the I mean, first of all, CSO is kind of a new position. Right? I mean, how long has this even been a thing?
Chrissa Pagitsas
Well, many CSOs recently got their title. Right. Some, you know, for example, McDonald's has just recently appointed a CSO, but they've had a sustainability strategy for 10 plus years. So some companies have had this CSO role. So for example, B, for example, has been CSO since for 2011. Right? But sustainability even predates the 2011 time period for Coca Cola. I think what we're seeing in this space, Josh, is that as sustainability has become more recognized as something required, not just requested, required by consumers, required by investors, whether equity investors or bond investors, right, companies have realized that we need to have somebody in charge, they need to have a table with all the other senior, you know, a seat at the table with all the other executives, and it can't be off to the side. It can't be buried underneath HR or buried under compliance or a subgroup of the marketing group, it actually has to be something that's integrated into the core business. And that's what's really exciting about these leaders. They have to
Josh Steimle
be real.
Chrissa Pagitsas
Yeah, the days of sort of green window dressing are gone. You can't just make a statement of go green. Think of the environment and use a, you know, reusable bag, but those days are over. That's that's not enough. What what these executives are being asked to do is to really dig deep into the core business and the core products and identify, identify how they can create real value through a sustainability strategy.
Josh Steimle
So what has worked for you to get ahold of these executives? I mean, these are executives at big companies. They're extremely busy. They have gatekeepers. I went through this. Yeah, my book, Jerry, I'm sure you're going through this and the question a lot of people have when they think about, okay, I want to go write a book full of interviews of all these famous people, but it's how do I get ahold of these people? So what's worked for you? And if you can say what hasn't worked?
Chrissa Pagitsas
Sure. So I would say First, start with your your trusted network. I think everybody who wants to write a book is probably at least a few years into their career, and have people that they And turn to that know, the people they'd like to interview, I would say start there. Because the power of a known introduction is greater than a complete cold introduction. I think second is being respectful of that executives time and understanding that they have many, many demands on their time. And they have to choose, they can't do everything. So it's not that they don't like you, Josh, they don't like me, they don't want to talk to somebody, it's just, there's only so many hours of the day, and they too need to eat and sleep and see their family. So when you when you make the ask, it's, there is value for you. Here's what the value is. So in our case, right, telling the story of a particular perspective, that also highlights the good that this company is doing. And let me tell you how easy it's going to be for you. Right? It's only going to take an hour of your time, it's going to be edited, you don't have to touch it. When you get it, it'll be near perfect. And you only have to do a final one time review. So I think that's another piece right to the success of getting somebody to say yes. And then I think the third one is realize that the that there are gatekeepers, right? Again, you're talking to fortune 500 executives, or anybody, right. And most executives, senior people have an admin have a chief of staff have a PR team, a marketing team. And so talking to those people first, in a 30 minute conversation or in a 15 minute conversation, and making sure that they know the value and then they can summarize it even further. And take it to that executive for the final Yes, is really critical. So what's worked for me is using my core network, asking my network for introductions, being very clear about my ask, and the value add. And being very willing and thoughtful partners with PR and marketing teams.
Josh Steimle
Yes. All great stuff. Have you decided how many people you're going to interview for your book?
Chrissa Pagitsas
I'm targeting right now. 25? Okay, that's, that's the number I'm plus or minus in that range.
Josh Steimle
Yeah, that's quite a few. I mean, I did 30. For mine, you're doing 25. They I think a press told me to do 15 or something. I was like, I can't really just like, you want me to limit it to 15. I want to talk to more people. But yeah, they started saying like, you got to wrap this up. You got to, it's gonna be too big, too long. But I just thought, No, I want to I want to talk to people in the book side, read in the a press series, founders at work and VCs at work. I think they had quite a few interviews in it. And I loved it. I mean, I wanted more I finished founders at work was the book that started the series by Jessica Livingston. And I read that and I thought I could read five more books of exactly the same type of thing. I wanted it to keep on going. But 25 is it's ambitious. I mean, once you get there, it's, I feel for you, because I'm thinking of what it takes to get those 25 interviews, and then it's not just getting the appointment, it's when they cancel the appointment, then you have to reset up the appointment. Have you been through any of that yet?
Chrissa Pagitsas
I have been through that with two of the interviewees where, you know, you know, you know, very apologetic, a crisis has come up, but deadline has been moved, and they need to move it. And what I found is they have scheduled the appointment or the new interview time for a couple of days later. So it's not pushed out a month. But it happens. I mean, life happens, and you just you just sort of roll with it. I think Josh, and I, you know, I think this is advice that I certainly would love to hear from you and maybe others that are interested in the interviewing the executives is how have you if you don't mind me interviewing you on your podcast, but I'd love to hear how have you ensure that you get succinct, coherent statements and thoughts from people who may be thinking more in a flow concept? Do you have any, you know, words of wisdom for all of us on on that part?
Josh Steimle
It's hard because there are some people who tend to talk a lot and go on and on and not let you get a word in edgewise. And of course, when it's somebody at a fortune 500 company and they're doing a favor for you Which is really, I really like what you said about being polite and being very respectful of their time and of the favor that they're doing for you. Because they might feel at some point, like you're doing a favor for them as well. Because after all, you're interviewing them for a book, they're gonna have their name in this book, I mean, you're doing them a favor. But that's not how we should look at it as authors, we should look at it as they're doing us a favor, and we should be so gracious and so appreciative, just like you were saying. And so then it's hard when you're doing that interview, and you think I've only got an hour and this guy is going on and on and on about something that is not what we want to talk about in this interview. And I found that I had to get pretty comfortable with cutting people off. And just saying, and just jumping in. And I have a hard time with that. Because I'm naturally anti confrontational. And I kind of liked to listen. And yet at the same time, I had to force myself to say, Well, hey, let's so what I would try to do is I try to look for something they said that I had some sort of follow up question about and then say, Oh, I really like what you just said, there. You said such and such one, by the way, and then I go into my next question, and just kind of cut it off that way. But without it feeling like just saying, we need to get to the next question, you know, and it wasn't easy for me. But by the time I got to the 30th interview, I was pretty good at it.
Chrissa Pagitsas
That's very helpful. I, I found myself fascinated by the long stories. But I've also realized, you know, and looking at your book, for example, Josh is, you know, readers want to see different perspectives, or they want to hear different parts of, you know, an executives experience, whether their personal experience, whether their professional journey, key moments that influence their management style, and sort of guiding them through all of those questions is the best end result I've I've come to, and you've just validated, so thank you, is the best end result for the reader to because otherwise, it could be one long chapter about one particular event, which would be good and in depth. But the the shifting and the the nuanced conversation around different parts of their life is, is ultimately I think, what most readers are looking for.
Josh Steimle
I think if I could do it over again, I wish I mean, I'm not sure I would do this, but I wish I could have gotten two hours with each interviewee, is I think it would have been a little more relaxed, a little more casual, a little more comfortable. And I wouldn't have had to ever cut anybody off or rush things along. And then I could have been able to pick and choose the best parts for the book as I edited it down. The hard part about that is, I knew that if I went in, and I said, Let me get two hours of your time, I would have been turned down a lot more. And I just wouldn't have been able to get that kind of time from these executives. And so it is a tough situation, when you're interviewing a fortune 500 executive, you know that, you're just not going to get two hours of their time unless you're somebody super famous, or unless you're Oprah or something. So it's, I wish I could go back and do that. At the same time, I just don't think it would have been realistic. But if I were interviewing anybody else, somebody that's a little bit easier to get ahold of, or they might be a little more flexible with time. I think two hours would be great, because the time really does fly by for both people. If if you're having an interesting conversation.
Chrissa Pagitsas
Well, I think also remembering that I may, you know, this may have happened to you, you may not have spoken with the CMO, for example, some of these CSOs I haven't spoken to until the interview, I've been working with their PR their marketing team or their chief of staff or somebody else. So they haven't met me before. So that first hour, the first part of the hour, the first five minutes is Hello, I'm Chris, it's been so nice to work with your team. Let me make sure you, you know, know a little bit about me and going through the process. So you've already been taken up five to 10 minutes of the the hour. And then I also Josh, make sure to actually end the interview about 10 minutes before the top of the hour, so that I can once again, thank them, ask them if they have any final words or any piece that they wanted to add to the conversation that I didn't ask them, and then give them you know, a five minute break before they go into their next hour meeting or two hour meeting or board meeting whatever it may be. So you know, really using that 30 to 45 minutes wisely has really become something that I've appreciated over the next or for the first few interviews that I've done and then has influenced the sub Adequate ones. I think you're right. Two hours would be ideal. I don't think anybody would say yes. At least not not, not at a fortune 500 level. Yeah,
Josh Steimle
yeah, that would be tough. And I think that's a great point that you made there that it's not really an hour. Just because you have an hour booked doesn't mean you have an hour of interview time. And if you go and claim that you're going to have that much time, and then you're walking away and saying, wait, I've only got 30 minutes now, because they took 15 minutes, they wanted to know all about me, and they wanted to chat. Exactly.
Chrissa Pagitsas
Exactly.
Josh Steimle
So as you're working on the book, what are some of the challenges that have come up other than getting a hold of people or getting the interview done? Are you at a point where you've experienced any other challenges with the book? And if so, how have you overcome those?
Chrissa Pagitsas
It's interesting, I think there's, I've hit two, two, I wouldn't call them roadblocks but to, let's call them obstacles to work through. I don't think anything's insurmountable. But, but there are some obstacles, I think one is, in the course of the interview, there might be something that the executive says that's a really great story. But it needs two more sentences of context for the reader. You know, this event happened in this year, for two or three reasons here. And then they go into the story, I've found that doing the follow up to fill in those two or three sentences is a little bit challenging, right, because it's the only person who can really fill that is the CSO. And they really, and I really should only expect them to review the final chapter versus Oh, can I ask you one more thing? Can I ask you one more thing? So I think that's where in the course of the interviews, if I realize immediately, oh, I need two more sentences they need then I need to interrupt and say, could you give me two more words about what this is that was and then I'll retro fit the paragraph afterwards. So I think the challenge there is going back to an executive after the interview, not a best use of their time, not efficient. So I need to hone the questions and do what you suggested sort of the interrupting a bit more. I think the second one that I've found, has really been time. You know, these transcripts. So Josh, you know, the process, you know, the the interviews are 35 to 45 minutes, I get them transcribed, and they come back, pretty raw, right? There's flow that needs to be corrected, there's paragraphs that ultimately do work better in a different order. And that, that editing is actually a substantial amount of time. And I, you know, not only am working on this book, I'm consulting to clients on ESG, and sustainability. And I have two boys in virtual hybrid school. And I've found that finding the two to three hours that I need to just think through a transcript and one big, big chunk has been challenging. So I don't know if those two resonate with you, and you experience them. But those have been my two challenges.
Josh Steimle
Yeah, absolutely. I feel your pain. You're talking just like, Oh, this is bringing back so many memories. But yeah, it's, um, you were saying the editing. That's an interesting point. And it reminds me that when I spoke to the interviewees, I said, we are going to edit these. And we might change the exact words that you used to get your point across if we know what the point was. But there was just it wasn't clear in the way it was worded. We might reword that I didn't say it quite that way. Because that doesn't sound as respectful. But essentially, I was saying, we might tweak what you say to for clarity and things like that. And I'm so glad that we put that in the release form that we had them signed, because we did have to go back and do a press night, we had to go back and do some editing, to make sure that it made sense what they are saying because sometimes people are thinking out loud, and they say something and then they stop in the middle of a sentence. And then they pick it up. And you don't want to include all of that. You just want to get the point across. And so you say well, I know what they're trying to say here. And so we would rewrite it. And then we'd send it back to them of course and say, here's your interview, do you approve of it, but it took a lot of time because and when I went into this process, I thought I'm just gonna interview these people. And then I'll get transcribed and then I've got a book so easy. And then as I'm going through the editing process I'm thinking, I thought it would have been easier to write this whole book myself without interviewing anybody. This is a lot of work. So even for those out there listening to this, you might think it's easy to do a book full of interviews, but it actually it's just as much work as writing a book that is coming out of your head.
Chrissa Pagitsas
I have to admit, I'm laughing because I had a similar reaction. I you know, I mentioned at the beginning of this, this this conversation that I was actually working on another book proposal when I came across yours and became inspired to do this CSO book. And I was like, Oh, my as my son would say, easy peasy lemon squeezy. Right, like, Yeah, I got this I, you know, I'll call people I know, they'll, you know, tell other done in the bag. And before I started doing this, I also when people say, Oh, you're writing a book, and I said, Oh, I mean, it's interviews. I mean, they're great people. But um, no, it's just interviews that are being transcribed. And then after working through their first few interviews, Josh, the transcripts, I'm like, No, I am an author, I am writing. Because I am thinking about every single word that this person spoke, and honing it, I think that's the word that I use is that I'm, I'm honing their point. Because as we talk, we, as we sometimes ramble, we move on to the next point without completing it. I'm actually helping write their story in a way that I didn't fully appreciate when I began this process. So I would say that for authors that do want the executive perspective and do plan on including, particularly verbatim text, it actually takes more work than you would think, doesn't mean don't do it. It just means don't underestimate the the thoughtfulness that you'll need to put into somebody else's words within your book. So that's, that's been a big learning for me.
Josh Steimle
Yep. For sure. So now, earlier, what before we started recording today, I was asking you, so what was the motivation for writing the book, and we are talking about how a lot of the audience is entrepreneurs who are running or starting businesses, and they want to write a book to get credibility. And you've worked in corporate for a long time. But now you're going through this process, you're you have your consulting firm that you're running and you're looking to grow. Tell us a little bit more about that, and how you see the book helping you with that part of what you're doing professionally?
Chrissa Pagitsas
Sure, well, my expertise is the financial services industry, right? So commercial real estate, mortgage finance, I think it's fascinating. Maybe not everybody does, but I love this field. And so I certainly as a consultant can immediately help those types of companies, financial services, commercial lending, real estate developers. But one of the things that I'm excited about with this book and interviewing be Perez of Coca Cola, and Procter and Gamble, Virginia, leus, consumer packaged goods is I can then bring to my clients within the financial services, a different perspective. Hey, let me tell you what other fortune 500 companies are doing what sustainability Let me tell you what they did with their green bond. Again, different purposes, different use of the proceeds. But I think the the, your clients depend on you to bring outside perspective. And doing this book provides me that and then I can create that value for my clients in the financial services, industry, and real estate industry.
Josh Steimle
And so, now that you're writing this book, which wasn't the book you originally set out to write, are you going to go back and write the original book after this?
Chrissa Pagitsas
Yes, that first book, I still have the proposal for it. But I did hit pause on it, because I realize the richness of the experiences from these interviews could very well inform that first book. So I think the first book is much more about the the framework around sustainability that I've used that has been successful for Fannie Mae, and that is echoed by all of these other companies. And so I'm excited to work on it. I'm excited to you know, put it forth to a publisher. But I think it'll be even richer now, because of this. This now for the real now first book that I'm working on, with a press
Josh Steimle
Oh, After you get that book down, do you have ideas for other books in the future?
Chrissa Pagitsas
Um, I would say there's probably a third book out there. Much more about individual leadership, less about sort of corporate sustainability and green bonds and environmental sustainability, I think there is a leadership change management book. But that's as far as I've gotten.
Josh Steimle
So as you've been writing this, I found that with this podcast and the interviews I did for chief marketing officers at work, whenever you interview people who are part of your tribe, or your audience, opportunities tend to come up in that process. I mean, I thought, when I started my book, I thought, I'm going to write the book, publish the book, and then good things will come. I found that good things were coming while I was writing the book, because of that process and doing those interviews, have you seen seen any fruit like that, where the interview itself has led to an opportunity and you thought, Wow, this is great, I'm not only getting the interview, but I'm getting to talk to this person, and it's going in this direction I wasn't expecting.
Chrissa Pagitsas
I think it will, I will say, I've only been interviewing people for three weeks now. So. So in terms of sort of things coming out of it immediately, I haven't seen, I would say a direct, you know, contract come of it. But I will say that the conversations themselves point to that, right? Oh, I didn't realize there was somebody like you in the industry, or your experience is so relevant to what we're doing at our company. So what I would say is, is that all of these interactions are the planting of seeds, right? It's, you interview somebody, they get a great impression of you, they see you as a professional person, obviously, with deep experience, respectful of their time, organized, right, you deliver. And then that seed is planted. And maybe it's a month, maybe it's three months. From there, the call comes and they say, we'd love for you to do something more with us. That's what I see these interviews are lots of seed planting.
Josh Steimle
Perfect. So having gone through this much of the process yourself, and I know you're still early on, this is a little bit different interview than most that I've done in that we're interviewing an author in progress. But with as far as you've gotten into this journey, as you have, what's some of the things that you've learned that you didn't know, maybe just a month or two ago that now you're saying, oh, if I was advising somebody on following my steps in this process, here's what I'd want to make sure that they know.
Chrissa Pagitsas
Well, let's see, we touched on a couple of them, which is, you know, being organized. You know, certainly when you're working with executives being thoughtful, I would also say, is really important to to really understand their business. So when I go into the conversation, I've already read the sustainability report, I've obviously read the person's bio, you do a lot more research than you realize in order to be a credible counterpart to the interviewee. So they don't feel that they're taking you on the one on one journey. You want to be at the 301 level and the 401 level. So I would say being thoughtful about doing research is critical, because it brings out an even richer conversation from the interviewee. That would be another thing that I would say. But that's sort of on the interview process. Josh, I would say that if I could add one other thing about the book writing process, and maybe even the book publishing process, is that while I'm still in my first interviews, I've already started thinking about the marketing. I've started thinking about what articles Am I going to write that are excerpts of these key interviews? What are the themes that I'm going to bring together and post on LinkedIn, for example, about executive leadership and sustainability? I do think that if someone is taking the time to write a book, which is considerable, right, it's not just an hour interview and an hour of editing, it takes lots of hours. I think you want people to read it. And if people are going to read it, they need to find it. And the way that they're going to find it is through the LinkedIn posts, the articles, the podcasts, certainly word of mouth, but you actively spending the time to make sure people can find it. So that's, that's actually the other piece about the book publishing process that I'm actually very actively thinking about and working on right now.
Josh Steimle
You mentioned marketing there. And I don't know if we've talked about this outside of this interview before. But one of the things that worked out really well for me is I did take those excerpts from the book. And then I would write up an article. And I would send it to somebody at Forbes or another publication and say, Hey, I just wrote this book, I interviewed all these amazing people. Here, a few lessons I learned. And this article is yours, you can publish it with your name on it, it's your thing. And I basically write the article about myself and about the book, but then really focusing on those executives. And I was able to get articles published in Forbes in other places, by taking parts of the book that way, and it was really quite an easy pitch to send those out to people.
Chrissa Pagitsas
I think that's really smart. And I thank you for that advice for me and for people listening. I think the reality is, is the way that we find things is through so many different inputs, right? It's your phone news, it's your it's the tweet, it's the everybody comes across information through so many different channels these days that packaging it up like you did, and creating an easy article that Forbes can hit publish on. is brilliant. It's it's an easy way for someone to say yes to the article, and then to find you, and then hopefully buy the book, of course, or the audio book.
Josh Steimle
Yeah. What are where do? There's always this question when it comes to connecting with the audience, which is where do they hang out? Well, where do chief sustainability officers hang out? Where would you be looking to market to them?
Chrissa Pagitsas
Well, so it's funny, this book is not for CSOs. Believe it or not. This book is for the non sustainability executive, who either has been told to learn sustainability and Come on, figure it out, get it done. And they're starting from scratch, or somebody who is being told by their board being told by their senior management, it's important. You need to start working better with the CSO or the sustainability team. So the CSOs know all this stuff, or they know most of it. So they hang out at Green conferences, sustainability conferences, there's LinkedIn networks that, you know, that are specific to sustainability, and I'll make sure they hear about it. But frankly, it's the non sustainability executive that I'm trying to reach, which is where I think, Josh, the, you know, the Forbes article, spot on, you know, if there's a Wall Street Journal opportunity, yes, I would love to put something into the mainstream financial markets, about how CSOs create value for large companies.
Josh Steimle
Gotcha. Great point there about figuring out who the real ideal audience is. Yes,
Chrissa Pagitsas
yes, absolutely. I think I think that's something I've done a lot of thinking about, as I've been thinking through this marketing plan. Because, yes, sustainability officers and their teams could use this, but they are actually also usually fairly small. We think about it a different way. Right, which is, it's one CSO, it's five to 10 people, okay, five to 10 people times 1000 companies, fortune 1000 companies, even fortune 2000 companies, it's not a lot. But the lessons that they have on change management, on leadership, on fortitude, on being visionaries about the next wave of environmental issues that are going to affect their company. That's something that I think every executive can learn from, and I need to find them.
Josh Steimle
Awesome. So what's your timeline looking like? When do you expect to have it published and out there?
Chrissa Pagitsas
So right now I'm targeting for a full manuscript full first draft by August, and with copy editing and final edits and all of the production process. The target is January 2022.
Josh Steimle
Great, well, we'll be looking for it. So as we wrap things up here, where can people find you crease if they want to reach out and connect with you?
Chrissa Pagitsas
Sure. The two best ways are via LinkedIn. So Chrissa Pagitsas, you can find me there. And then you can also find me on my website, Chrissa Pagitsas dot com.
Josh Steimle
Spell that out for us, just so that we make sure that people get it right.
Chrissa Pagitsas
That doesn't roll off the tongue and is easily known. It's C-H-R-I-S-S-A P-A-G-I-T-S-A-S
Josh Steimle
Dot com. Perfect! Well, Chrissa, thank you so much for being with us here today on the Published Author podcast.
Chrissa Pagitsas
Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure.