Nonfiction books with stories using the narrative arc are almost guaranteed to be successful.

Former publisher and writing coach Allen Arnold says that well-written stories engage readers, draw readers in, and make the content memorable.

“In today's world of distraction with so little time to read, you have to compete for a reader’s attention,” says Allen. “It can't be enough just to say, this is something that I thought you might want to read, I've written a book, now buy it. 

“You have to invite people into the story, whether it's food, whether it's technology, whether it's architecture. What is the story that you're telling in your nonfiction?”

In a wide-ranging interview, Allen talks to Published Author Podcast host Josh Steimle about how to use God as a co-creator in any creative venture, the importance of the narrative arc, formulaic writing, the state of the publishing industry, and why knowing oneself is essential before beginning either a nonfiction or fiction book. 

USE GOD AS YOUR CO-CREATOR

Author of two successful bestsellers—The Story of With: A Better Way to Live, Love, And Create, and Chaos Can’t—Allen has helped literally hundreds of writers publish successful books. 

Allen believes too many creative people pursue a formula or what is in vogue, when instead they should be creating their own story—as a writer, painter, poet, whatever. 

“Most people don't know how to pursue their creativity actively with God. Instead, they try to pursue a formula. They want to know what works and just do more of that. So I decided to write a book through an allegory, mostly that invited people into how do you pursue what you love to do actively with God? 

He hears a lot of creatives say “I feel like it's all up to me”.  Allen’s response is that by co-creating with God “You never have to be alone again. You're doing something with an eternal spark. The fruit of that it's been a lot of transformed creatives out there that all of a sudden enjoy it more and are doing more breakthrough work.”

Allen describes his approach as inviting God into a playground of ideas. In his own writing he would “Sense God saying in the allegory . . .right, your character goes into an impossible situation that you can't resolve at the end of the chapter. And then wait for me to tell you what to do. The writing became this almost like, a game of back and forth and tag, and the pressure was off me. 

“I felt like God was guiding me in the story and in the teaching into some things that would be beyond me. I got to be a part of it. I think that's the best kind of writing possible, when you're not just relying on your own wisdom.”

HOW MANY WORDS A DAY SHOULD YOU WRITE?

Allen is a big proponent of forgetting word count when you sit down to write. Instead, he encourages writers to simply focus on having something to say something worth breathing life into. In his view, if you write no words one day in search of that strong piece of writing, and 10 words the next day, a writer is better off compared to someone who produces 5000 words a day. 

GET TO KNOW YOURSELF - REALLY WELL

With most successful authors, it doesn’t start with their book, but instead who they are. “In the publishing world, if you don't know your own story, if you haven't lived an examined life, if you don't know why somebody would enjoy working with you, then ultimately, I think you do yourself a disservice,” he says. 

Allen passed up on many authors he knew could produce a New York Times best seller because they were, in his words, hard to work with, had a high ego, or were driven by such a need for validation that they would  just drain his team. 

He says authors must “Know your effect on others, as a writer as a creator, because it's a relational business, whether you self-publish, or whether you're with a traditional publisher. You work with other people and so it starts with who you are. And the more you know your story, the more the story you write, it will have a power to it.” 

ABANDON FORMULAIC WRITING

Allen recalls that as a publisher he learned that the most successful and appealing authors were those who did not write to a formula. 

Writers who wanted to write what would be hot were in fact limiting themselves, he explains. Instead, he was drawn to those who would say “I don't care if this is a genre that's hot or not right now, this is what I was born to write. This is what I'm passionate about. And this is what I want to offer you.”

Those were the writers who most caught his eye. “We all know in this industry that trends come and go.The best thing you can do is write what you're passionate about; not write to spec not write to formula if you want to have heart within what you write.”

In large part he blames the publishing industry for this state of affairs, saying it’s gotten off track for two reasons. First, too many publishing hours are chasing authors with large social media followings to be able to say they can make a book around a following instead of what's a good book and how do we grow the audience?

Next, the publishing industry has lost its ability to define their customers. At one time, it was the bookstore, not the reader. But along came Amazon and defined the customer as the reader, not the bookstore. They also happen to know a lot about that reader. So when bookstores started closing physical locations, publishing houses realized they had no information about their customers. 

The fruit of all this, concludes Allen, is: “A lot of forgettable books by smaller publishing teams who are overworked, understaffed, and have no marketing budget.”

LINKS

• Twitter

• WithAllen.com

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Josh Steimle

Today our guest is Allen Arnold. Alan is the author of Chaos Can't. And The Story of With. His mission is to awaken the hearts of people to pursue their life and art actively and intimately with God. He leads content for Wild at Heart in ministry founded by the New York Times bestselling author of Wild at Heart, John Eldridge. Before that, Alan spent 20 years in Christian publishing. As the founding publisher of Thomas Nelson fiction, he oversaw the launch of more than 500 novels, and received the American Christian Fiction Writers Lifetime Achievement Award in 2012. Alan, welcome to the show. Thanks,

Allen Arnold

Thanks. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Josh Steimle

Okay, so later on, we're going to get into what we talked about before that you wanted to talk about a bit, which is this topic of co-creating with God, why chaos comes against us in specific ways and how to overcome chaos. But before we get there, give us some of your backstory. Because it's not like every five-year-old kid says, Hey, when I grow up, I want to be the head of a publishing company and help people write books. Like, where did you start from? And how did you get interested in books and end up in the publishing industry?

Allen Arnold

Great question. So my initial love was never in my mind to be a publisher when I was growing up, you're right, it was a love of story. And story has been the common thread in my life. And when I was younger, it was TV shows that had a narrative that went through them, or it was, you know, great movies, or comic books, even, where I was being invited into, okay, what does it look like to be a hero? or What does it look like to try to save the day, you know, through the stories of Superman or whoever. So it was a wide variety of stories. And I read a lot of Stephen King as a boy, and probably shouldn't have read as much Stephen King as a boy, you know, based on just the craziness of some of those books, but I always wanted to discover more of who I was in life through story. And then I was drawn to commercials. And so one cool thing was I got my degree in advertising, because I was fascinated by it, how people could take 30 seconds for a TV or radio ad, and the best ones created a story. And that pulled me into that world of Wow, I want to understand and master that I used to watch the Superbowl more for the commercials than the game itself. I was one of those guys. And then after a few years in that world, which was a lot at the time, like Mad Man, like, I mean, it was the Wild West, very creative people, but very but crazy environments. I had people you know, in that advertising world, like I had a boss who would get furious for really no reason. And we'd be in a small conference room, and he'd pick up one of those roller chairs and throw it at me, you know, and, and there was no HR department. So it was just you had something out of it was exactly like out of a movie. And there was no HR department. So you just kind of learned to survive on your creativity, and duck really well. But from there, I got into publishing and ultimately became a fiction publisher, where I felt like it came full circle, I got to be part of the creative process, to help stories be born that other people would hopefully be drawn to, and that would help them interpret life. And so I founded that division. It was a 200-year-old publishing company, Thomas Nelson, but they'd never had a specific fiction-dedicated division. So did that for a decade.

Josh Steimle

Now, had you done any writing before you got into the publishing industry? Or did you have any aspiration to become an author at this point?

Allen Arnold

I didn't have an aspiration to become an author. But I did a lot of creative writing, and I found that I was really good through my advertising days on how to say things in a few words. And I think that's why I'm drawn to Twitter even today . . . how do you say something that matters in the least amount of words that evokes emotion and thought from people? So I would write back cover copy for books before I became a publisher. And there's a real art to that, because you have to not say too much or too little, you know, and know your audience. So I always loved writing. I never thought I would be an author. I was kind of like, it was like being the basketball coach for a long time. And then one day, as you got a little older, somebody's saying, hey, you get on the court and be a player. And I had never thought of myself . . . When I was the fiction publisher. I never was thinking how can I angle myself to be one of the writers? That wasn't even . . . it was always how to make other people's stories come alive. So I did that for a decade, and then got a call from a ministry. And it's all about how do people come alive more by having their heart awaken? Men and women, and knowing God in a deep way, and that really changed my life and appealed to me. And so ultimately ended up joining that team. And now I'm the executive producer of content for Wild at Heart, which is based on a book that sold, I think, 600 million copies over the last 15 years, which is, you know, if a book, you know, nowadays sells a couple of 1000 copies, that's . . .

Josh Steimle

That's already a bestseller on Amazon.

Allen Arnold

Right! And so this book is still selling, I mean, a ton every year. And I think it's because it taps into something, a universal desire with men, and there's one for women, Captivating, which is how do you pursue your story, it all goes back to story again, with God. And so that's what I'm spending my days doing. But then, in my free time, what I love to do most is go after the hearts of people in their creative ventures, and mostly that's writers. And so I'm coaching writers, I'm shaping their manuscripts, I'm inviting them into how to see the story they want to tell, fiction or nonfiction, in new ways. So that's a little bit about my world.

Josh Steimle

So after helping 500 people, or maybe it's 500 books, and some of those people were repeat authors, but after helping a lot of authors write a lot of books, what are some of the trends that you noticed among authors who were successful versus those who weren't successful?

Allen Arnold

Great question. Well, the biggest thing, I think that's an eye opener to a lot of people is, as a publisher, for me, I realized pretty quickly, it starts with the person, not the story. And so many times at writers conferences, you know, it's like, you'll sit across from a writer and a spotlight will go on the manuscript, or the pages before you the proposal, and all the focus is there. And there does have to be a good story there. You know, they don't have to have to know how to write. But what I realized is it starts with who they are, because really in the publishing world, if you don't know your own story, if you haven't lived an examined life, if you don't know why somebody would enjoy working with you, then ultimately, I think you do yourself a disservice. And when I was a publisher, we would actually say no to certain authors and proposals, because we knew that author was hard to work with, or had a high ego that was kind of out of control, or was driven by such a need for validation that they just drain the team. So there are many times an author could be a New York Times bestseller, and I would tell the team, we do not want the hassle of this relationship, even though they're a great storyteller, it would drain us all. And so I think the first thing I would add is to the list is, know your effect on others, as a writer as a creator, because it's a relational business, whether you sell publish, or whether you're with a traditional publisher, you work with other people and and so it starts with who you are. And the more you know your story, the more the story you write, it will have a power to it. So that's the first thing I would say. The second thing is, I found the writers the most appealing, and ultimately the most successful that we're not writing to formula. And so many writers would say, just tell me what you want. If you know as a fiction publisher. Here's a proposal in the Western genre, here's a romance. Here's Amish fiction, here's suspense. And you just tell me which one you want, because I really want to just be a published author. Well, they thought they were widening the possibility. But to me, they were actually limiting the possibility because I wanted the writer who said, I don't care if this is a genre that's Hot or Not right now, this is what I was born to write. This is what I'm passionate about. And this is what I want to offer you. Those were the writers that most caught my eye. Because the thing we all know in this industry is trends come and go. And so the best thing you can do is write what you're passionate about, not write to spec, not write to formula, if you want to have heart within what you write.

Josh Steimle

Did you ever work on a book with an author that you could have sworn was going to be a huge hit? It was going to knock it out of the park? And then it kind of flopped, and you weren't sure why?

Allen Arnold

Oh, all the time. Like, all the time. Publishing is an art, not a science. And so you know, the thing about a company where I used to work, we would publish not just in my fiction division, but overall, like 400 books a year. And nobody could tell you, no matter how long they've been in the business, which book or which group of books work. And oftentimes it was a book that had one of the lower advances, lower expectations, and it just takes off, and for the next two years, is paying the light bills of the whole publishing company. You know, and the ones that we paid the high advance on. didn't do much it kind of came and went. And so anybody that thinks they know exactly what's going to work and not work is selling you something. Because the reality is we're all we know what good writing is maybe and we know who has a good track record. But in the end, the consumer decides, and the consumer always would surprise us. And so I used to be a CFO with the company I worked at, who would come to me and say, Alan, I bought a way for you to make more money in your division. And I'm like, great, what is it? And he said, we'll only publish the books that are going to sell really well. Thank you.

Josh Steimle

Tell me how to do that. Yeah. Right. So yes, I can tell you . . . I mean, they're there. If I published hundreds of books, I've got dozens and dozens of stories of the one we thought would be the book . . . it didn't make a splash. And the one we just thought, I guess we'll try this one, became the one that for the next year, outsold everything else. So interesting. So at what point? Was it that you said, You know what, I want to write my own book, what was the motivation? Or what was the spark that turned you into an author?

Allen Arnold

Well, the spark was really it was after I left publishing, interestingly, like when . . . as long as I was a publisher, I was so consumed with other people's stories, and helping those stories come to life, I didn't even think about it. And when I left and joined Wild at Heart, I felt like, boy, I don't want to let go of this part that I love most about being a publisher, which was helping people's dreams and stories come alive. I didn't care for the performance. I didn't care for the contracts, you know, the 100-page contracts, all of that I did, because I had to. But what I loved most was helping people's stories come alive. And so as I left that, I was still drawn to creatives. And what I realized is most creatives, whatever their creativity is, you know, in terms of passion, it could be song, it could be poetry, could be dance, architecture, cooking . . . I realized, though, that most people don't know how to pursue their creativity actively with God. Instead, try to pursue formula. They want to know what works and just do more of that. And so I decided to write a book through an allegory mostly that invited people into how do you pursue what you love to do actively with God? And a big part of that is, it's not a religious book. It's God as creator. You know, in Genesis, the very first way we know God, Genesis 1:1 is as creator. And so that's my invitation to people, is get to know God as creator, as a creative being. And imagine how your creativity could soar. If you weren't just limited to your own best thoughts, your own strength, but actually could enter into your creativity with God. So that's, that's what started that book. And I've loved to reach people like it. It's not just for writers. So it's anybody that has a dream, or a passion, it redirects, how do you do it, not just by yourself in your own strength, because I don't know if you've heard this a lot. But what I hear from a lot of creatives is, I feel like it's all up to me. And I have to do this in my own strength. And, and I'm kind of alone in this when I'm creating. And so a beautiful thing is an invitation is you never have to be alone again, if you learn how to create with God. And then you're not just doing it by yourself in your basement or in your office, or wherever you are, you're doing something with an eternal spark. So that's, that's been cool to see. The fruit of that it's been a lot of transformed creatives out there that all of a sudden enjoy it more and are doing more breakthrough work.

Josh Steimle

Did you feel, as you were writing, like you had a connection with God, and God was inspiring you and telling you in some cases what to write?

Allen Arnold

Oh, totally. Totally. And I want to break, you know, for peace, some people that are listening that may think, wow, what does that even mean? Like one of the things that that a friend of mine has said, which I think is great truth, is God is the least religious person he knows. So like what I'm talking about is not a religious trapping or formula, what I'm talking about is more freedom. And so what I'm saying is, is the God who created this universe, and the God who created in a sense, everything around us, I want that presence and that influence on what I do as a creator, the person who made me, you know, mythically, I want to invite into what I'm co creating, and I want it to be a co- creative process. So it's like inviting God on the playground of ideas. And so I did find that in my writing. And I found it in some of the most fun ways like I would sense God saying in the allegory, right, your character goes into an impossible situation that you can't resolve at the end of the chapter. And then wait for me to tell you what to do. And so the writing became this almost like, game of back and forth and tag and the pressure was off me. And so I felt like there were some of the things in there that were not my ideas. I felt like God was guiding me in the story and in the teaching into some things that would be beyond me. And I got to be a part of it. And I think that's the best kind of writing possible as when, when you're not just relying on your own wisdom, but you're actually going, Okay, if I have some passions and desires, but God can amplify that, why wouldn't I want that in my writing? Did you ever find yourself in a situation where you didn't have that connection? Or did it feel like the inspiration was coming to you . . . it was hard to write? And did you figure out a way to work around that? Or through it? Yeah. Yes, . . . one of the things that I think I will differ from a lot of . . if you attend a writers conference where they have coaches in the industry. And I used to be in that industry for 20 years. But one of the things that I think is problematic in the industry is we signed contracts with authors. And then it is a deadline. And that deadline has to be met. Because the bookstores are counting on the revenue, the publishing houses, there's a whole system of editorial and cover design, and it gets on this conveyor belt right from start to finish. But the problem is, a lot of times an author may sign a three book contract and have one idea. And then they get to book two. And it's stress, and it's pressure. And the best that happens, I think in those situations is a contract is fulfilled, an obligation that was paid for and an advance has been earned. But the idea never maybe needed to even be. In other words, there are a lot of books published that don't really need to be published. Because there's no big ideas. There's no fresh thinking. And so one of the things that I believe in is, rather than try to hit a word count each day, the better goal is to have something to say. Because 5000 words, means nothing. You know, it'd be like me telling you, if you said, Alan, you just went on vacation, tell me about it. And I said, Yeah, okay, well, I walked 5000 steps yesterday on my vacation. What does that tell you about the vacation, nothing. And so I'm a big proponent of forgetting word count, and focus more on having something to say, something worth breathing life into. And if you write no words, one day in search of that, and 10 words, the next day, you're better off than 5000 words a day of just writing. And so between my first and second book, it's been four years. And all of my writing friends are saying no, no, Alan, that's not how you do it. You know, as soon as you finish one book, you start the next. And I used to tell writers that as a publisher, but I've shifted in my thinking to the world would be better served by authors and storytellers who write when they have something to say, versus just every six months or every year that's my, that's my deadline for my next book. Because a lot of those books honestly are just forgettable because they never had a reason to be. So what I would struggle with my writing, I would pause until I felt like I had maybe in my journey of life I needed to have a little more experience in an area before I had more to write. And you have to be okay with that, versus a deadline driven writer, is my belief.

Josh Steimle

Love that. So I've got a question. I'm hoping you can help me answer or I'm interested to see what your perspective on this is. I once spoke with a Christian artist, a painter. And this was actually a professor of mine. And he was a very straight shooter shooter. He didn't feel like he was doing anybody any favors if he did it if he withheld his criticism. And he was very good. But one day I asked him, I said, I feel like there's a lot of art out there, religious art, that isn't that good. I mean, it's not up to your standards, certainly what you're teaching us how to do, right? And I said, Why is that? And he said, because we believe in Jesus Christ, and we believe in forgiveness. And so we're too nice. And we've kind of developed an entitlement mentality that things should come easier to us because this big thing does come easy to us. And have you seen that at all in the writing world that, I mean The Christian writing world, that there is any sense of entitlement or that people feel like, Well, hey, I'm a Christian, and I'm writing for a Christian audience, this should come easy to me. And they miss out on the fact that you still have to do the work?

Allen Arnold

Well, I think what you're naming is true. Yes, that does happen. But I think, I think what I would say is: any writer has a worldview. And so whether it's Christian or not, every writer is revealing more of who they are in their fiction or nonfiction than they might imagine, because they all have a worldview. And so what I think is unique to Christians, though, perhaps is, for a long time, we thought we have to teach a lesson in what we write. And to me that's, it's the craft that you name is one side of it, you have to master the craft, no matter who you are, in any creative enterprise, whether you play the guitar, or whether you're a chef or a writer, you have to take the hours and the time to master it. But I think in Christianity, a lot of the artists suffered in the last several decades, maybe longer, because we've tried to teach a lesson in everything we do. And what happens is it becomes especially in fiction, heavy-handed, thinly veiled stories that are just meant to teach something. And again, if we go back to God in Genesis, look at his creativity, he creates mountains. Are they Christian mountains? Are they mountains, the oceans? Are they Christian oceans? Is it a Christian elephant? Or is it an elephant? Is it you know, Christian wildflower or wildflowers? In other words, what I'm trying to get at is, if we look at God as our model God creates in trueness. He creates an ocean because an ocean is the truest form of what an ocean should be. So when we start writing, I believe as Christians, you know . . . I have a lot of authors ask me, should I write Christian fiction or general fiction? And my answer is yeah, neither. Write what's true. In your fiction, right trueness. As a Christian, what that would mean is, well, what is your view of death, and love and sacrifice and beauty? And let those ingredients be in your work in some way. But take the pressure off of trying to teach a lesson. What is the lesson of an ocean? What is the lesson of an aardvark? And so if we can have the confidence in our creativity that God had when he created, I think we free ourselves up a lot. And I think that's what's been the biggest hindrance to Christian art. Like, you can probably remember, you used to go in Christian bookstores, and there would be some that had art sections, right paintings and framed pictures. And they all had on the frame Bible verse engraved. And it's like, Why can't a beautiful painting, abstract painting, be beautiful? without having to anchor it to a verse in the Bible? like God, you know, God had much more freedom in his creativity than we sense that we have. And so that's my invitation to Christians who are writing, enter into it with God, and then creating trueness and trueness is far more freeing than a lot of the man-made restrictions. And it's not just in the Christian world, in the secular world, you go into a lot of publishing houses, and they have restrictions, you have to have this in your book, you can't say this, you need to do this, you can't do this. So again, there's restrictions and worldview on both sides of the fence. And what I'm offering is, I think something far more freeing than either, which is to enter into your love of writing in the story of art with God, and then create trueness, and let the art be the art and let people figure out how to define it.

Josh Steimle

Love that perspective. Now you teased us a little bit with these rules that publishing houses have. I'm curious, what are some of these rules behind the scenes that publishing houses have, do's and don'ts?

Allen Arnold

Well, I think a lot of them are not even specifically spoken in the publishing world. But what I would say, here are some of the general things that I think trap people is this: Whatever has worked before for an author, let's do it again. And so you look at the covers, for instance, the titles and covers of a novelist. And, you know, like John Grisham. Great example, you know, just one example of many. And I have never been in the publishing house. And I don't know John Grisham, so I don't know. I don't know what their thinking is. But as a reader, I know I used to always buy his books the day they came out. The Tuesday they came out I was in the store to buy the first edition. And I think he is a very creative individual. But eventually, after three, four or five books, I quit reading because I realized, I've kind of read the story before, it feels like the cover kind of looks the same. And I'm forgetting which book came first on my bookshelf. So that's, I think, part of the problem in the publishing world is they want to bottle lightning. Whatever word let's keep that formula going. The font of the author's name, the look of the book, the word count. I mean, even word count is a formula. Why do most novels have to be a certain word count? There's no rhyme or reason to if it's a better story or not, it's just so the spine has a certain length, and the book can be a certain price. And it fits the model. And so one of the things you know, you have to look at is how would I create something if I had never been stuck in a formula like that before? Then you look at genres in fiction? Why do romance novels have to have certain beats to them? Why do fantasy novels have to have certain things in them? Is it because it makes a better book or because somebody has said, this is what this needs to include if you're going to be writing the genre? So what you're probably sensing from me is I'm a very anti- formula guy, I believe the best creativity is not driven by what's worked in the past- rearview-mirror-thinking. But instead, what if we create something that has never been done, or done this way? And in what happens, Josh in the publishing industry is, as soon as something like that works, it's hard to get it published, because nobody wants to risk it. And then when it does get published, if it works, then everybody wants one of those. And so my invitation to writers is, write what you feel called to write. And I think the worst use of time at any writers conference, honestly, is when it's the panel of publishers and editors, and they're telling writers, we want more of this. This is the hot trend today. And we want less of this, don't send us anything on this topic. But send us a lot on this. And if you really want to get published write this way. And I always felt like, man that's so toxic, because what you're telling people to do is follow a trend that's happening now. And a year later, when they had that book written that they never really wanted to write, but are writing because you said, so there's going to be a new trend. And you're going to be telling people to write the new thing. And so a writer is better off doing something fresh and creative and original. And I think the publishing industry needs to take more risk today. And we may get to this later, but publishing authors that have high social media followings instead of great content, I think, has been one reason the publishing industry has spiraled down in many ways. They're chasing the wrong thing. They're chasing popularity of the writer, not what actual content is good, and fresh, and original.

Josh Steimle

You can see why that's such a temptation, because they're running a business and you think, well, this author brings a platform with him, they have all these followers, so we're gonna automatically sell 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 books, right out the gate, because they've got 30,000 followers on Twitter; yeah,like you say, that doesn't necessarily make for a good book.

Allen Arnold

Right. And if you, you know . . . the publishing world used to be one where they would say we'll find good content, and we'll create the platform. And those, I think, were the more Camelot days of publishing. We'll find good content, and then we'll create a platform for that writer. And nowadays, it's no we won't even look at a proposal unless there's a platform that the writer already has. And then we'll publish that book if there's a high platform, regardless of the content. And I think at some point, you have to say, Well, why does an author with a big platform even need a publisher? Because in today's world of self publishing it, you know, if I've already got a million followers, I can sell, publish a book and sell plenty of books without a publishing house? And so the publisher, what is their essence? What should a publishing house do to be a great publishing house? To me, it's: be a curator of great content, and then grow that author. And I think, frankly, a lot of good people are in that industry . . . and the industry I used to be, and it's been 20 years of my life, and I love it. But it's gotten off track for two reasons. I believe that reason is there chasing large social media following and then saying we can make a book around that, instead of what's a good book and how do we grow the audience, number one; and number two, I think it was years ago, the publishing industry define their customer is the bookstore, not the reader. Amazon came along and defined the customer as the reader, and knew a lot about that reader. And the bookstore started closing the physical bookstores. All of a sudden the publishing house was like, wow, we don't even know we don't even have the names of the people that were reading our books. And we thought our customer was the bookstore, but the bookstores are closing. And Amazon knows our customer a lot better than us and what do we do? And so I think those two things were two big puzzle pieces of where the publishing world either missed-stepped, or made a wrong calculation. I think we're seeing the fruit of that, which is a lot of forgettable books by smaller publishing teams who are overworked, understaffed, and have no marketing budget.

Josh Steimle

One of the earlier guests we interviewed, Jeff Butler, he had a deal from Wiley. Wiley came to him and offered him a deal, advance, everything. And he turned them down because he had already self published two books. And they said, we want to give you a book deal because you're a public speaker, you're on 60 stages every year, we know you're going to sell a lot of books. And he said, Well, wait a second, I know how to write a book. I know how to get the cover done. I know how to hire an editor. And you're already telling me that I'm going to do all the selling of the book. Now remind me again, why would I work with you as my publisher? If I can do all of this myself and . . .

Allen Arnold

Exactly.

Josh Steimle

So we end up like you say with either forgettable books, or publishers are making themselves forgettable to the authors, who already have everything that they need.

Allen Arnold

The publishing industry today largely . . . I'm not talking about everybody, but I'm saying, largely, has become really good at knowing how to make a book. In other words, they know the printers, they know the typesetters, the designers, they know how to make a book and get that book shipped somewhere. But in self-publishing the people that know how to do those things or want to learn, you do have to ask yourself, if I'm going to be paid hardly any advance as a new writer, especially as a new writer, or an unproven author, low advance, zero to low marketing dollars, you're going to spend . . . you're going to give my book maybe 60 days, 90 days at most to do something and then you're going to move on, why am I selling you those rights again? And I think the answer for most new writers is, yeah, it's an equation that doesn't make sense. Now, if you are an established marquee author, and you're getting paid $100,000, half a million dollars, something, you know, a high dollar amount for your book, and they're going to dedicate a lot of time because they have to, because they have to earn that out, or they need to try, then that may be a little bit different scenario. But even the problem there you can see is, if you keep betting on the marquee authors, you're not filling the tank, or the pipeline with the new voices. And if the new voices learn they don't need you, you're in trouble long term, that's not a sustainable model . . . that's being done now. And so I really do think the publishing industry is in need of a fresh reinvention. And the people that do that I think are going to see success and the people that don't are going to have a hard time making a case for why people should give them the rights to their ideas. Earlier, you mentioned that you're against formula, or that generally you're kind of against formula. At the same time before this podcast started we were talking a little bit about the posters on your wall, you've got the Secret Life of Walter Mitty and you've got a Gladiator poster up there. And you were talking about how much you love story. Using story is kind of a formula in a book sense. And this audience is mostly nonfiction. So we're talking to a lot of nonfiction listeners here on this podcast. But even with them, there's room for a story in there. So is story something that you feel like, Hey, you know, ditch formula, but you always got to have story. That's part of the formula that you need to include, or how would you explain that apparent contradiction there? I'm trying to trap you there. Yeah, I love it. I think story is a shortcut to the heart. And so whether you're writing fiction or nonfiction, or whether you're a speaker, or a pastor, or whoever you are, story is a shortcut to the heart. And I think that's why Jesus used parables. And I think that's why, you know, even if you look at the Bible, it's mostly story. It's not mostly doctrine is mostly story. And so I believe story is a key to unlocking the human heart. I don't believe it's a formula though, because every story is unique. You know, you look at your story. If we were sitting around having lunch, the two of us and you were telling me your story. There'll be no story quite like yours. No story quite like mine. Unlike the listener's story, so I don't believe story is a formula, I believe story is like the atmosphere around us, it is something that, universally, we can tap into in endless ways. And the goal of story, I think, is so we know ourselves better. And so we understand what a truer version of who we are is, it leads to an examined life in the things we love and who we are. And that doesn't make us all more similar. If it was formula, then every time story was used, we would all end up being more like each other, you know, because the formula brings us to this certain thing. And I love how God creates all of us so uniquely, and story invites us to become unique, not to become formulized. I think the general direction of the world right now is you have to think a certain way, you have to talk a certain way, you have to believe certain things, you have to walk the party line. And I think God is so refreshing to say actually, I've created each of you uniquely and individually. And so walk in that freedom. And so I believe what God invites us into is far more freeing, far more disruptive and a far truer version of ourselves than the world saying no, act a certain way, be a certain way, talk a certain way, and then you're accepted. And then you're part of the larger group. So yeah, I think story is anti-formula when it's done well.

Josh Steimle

Great answer. How do you feel like nonfiction writers can use story better, because obviously a fiction writer, they're writing a story, it's you don't have a story, you don't have a book. For nonfiction writers, it can be a little bit trickier. And there's a balance, there are some nonfiction writers who can feel like, well, I don't want to talk too much about myself or tell too many stories. But I also don't want it to be too dry. What are your thoughts on story within the nonfiction realm?

Allen Arnold

I think in the nonfiction realm, the first place I start with the writer is their own story. So that, in other words, the best books I think that are written are books or themes that are based on the story that we're living in that moment, or have just recently come out of, so I'll always start with a writer and say, how does the story you're writing - now I'm talking nonfiction - how does the story your writing reflect the journey you've been on? And if they say, well, it doesn't really at all, this is just, I'm just talking about a concept that has not a whole lot to do with anything in my life. That's a signal to me, that's not going to be probably a very interesting book. Because I believe the best stories reflect the journey we're on. And that doesn't mean the nonfiction book becomes a biography about or autobiography about our life. But it means that the things that you've learned about trauma, or about victory, or hope, or, you know, whatever the topic may be, when you understand that you have walked through some of that, now you're going to write a book on it. You don't have to keep referencing your own stories. But you do need it to tie to your story in some way. Or why are you writing the book? You know, like, I mean, if I wrote a book on cucumbers, it would be a very boring book, because I haven't really spent any time with cucumbers, and I have no interest. But I could research it and probably do a feasible job of getting something out on it. But it has no connection to me or who I am or my interest or passions. So I would start with story for them, for nonfiction writers, with that: What is the journey you're on? And how do you invite people into that journey in terms of the interest, the passion, the unique insight you have? And then let it be story driven in that way, that it parallels your own story in some way? Because if it doesn't, why are you inviting us into that world?

Josh Steimle

As you're talking, it made me think of Michael Palin's The Omnivore's Dilemma, which is a nonfiction book, but he has a story that weaves throughout it or . . . Born to Run, I can't remember the author, but Born to Run is another book like that. It's about running. But there's this story that goes from the beginning of the book to the end of the book. Are there any nonfiction authors you know of that spring to mind that are really experts that weaving story into their nonfiction writing?

Allen Arnold

Yeah, I think somebody that I would really recommend to people is Steven Pressfield. And he wrote a book you're probably really familiar with called the War of Art. But he also wrote The Legend of Bagger Vance, and he's done a lot of novels about ancient wars and cultures. And he spends his nonfiction writing talking about the art of writing. And what he has said is the reason that book has worked so well is because even when you're writing about something like writing you, you frame it in terms of a story, who's the protagonist? Who's the antagonist? What is the struggle? And so in nonfiction writing, he's got a lot of great content on when you start seeing nonfiction as though having those components to it. Well, there's got to be a protagonist, there's got to be an antagonist, even if it's thematic, even if it's the weather as the antagonist, even if it's something in a culture, that's, that's more of a thought. Then you can start to have a three-part arc to your story, your nonfiction story. And then you can write it in a way that has the ups and downs that a great novel or story would have, even in nonfiction. And so I think a lot of people miss that. And they think, Well, my goal, if I'm writing nonfiction, it is just a linear reporting of data or facts or principles. And the problem is that gets dry really quick. And people in today's world of distraction, and so little time to read, you have to compete for their attention. And so it can't be enough just to say, this is something that I thought you might want to read, I've written a book, now buy it. You have to invite people into the story, whether it's food, whether it's technology, whether it's, you know, architecture, what is the story that you're telling in your nonfiction?

Josh Steimle

Having worked with so many nonfiction authors - and you've already given us so many lessons and bits of wisdom here - but are there any other lessons from working with nonfiction authors? I mean, sorry, working with fiction authors, that you think nonfiction authors can take from that world of fantasy or science fiction, or that fictional world and take into their nonfiction writing?

Allen Arnold

Well, yes, one of the big things is, if they're not familiar with this, I would encourage people to study up on the hero's journey. And it's an archetype, or it's a you know, usually if you go online, and you look up hero's journey, you'll see a circle, and it has somebody kind of going on this journey, right clockwise journey that takes them into these different stages, like one is they have to step into the unknown, they need a sage, they then at the bottom, the six o'clock mark, it is a place of death, and rebirth. All hope seems lost at that point. And then it starts moving up in there, becoming a new person when they reach the end of that circle. And that's, that's a general . . . it's not a formula . . . but it's a general way most people's lives go that in life, whether you're in your 20s or 60s, you have to have some form of death and rebirth. If you're going to become new. If you want to become new, you have to say goodbye to the old at some point, and you have to step into the unknown. And so the hero's journey is a great way to look at where are you taking your readers in your nonfiction journey? Another way I would say it is if you pulled up in a car, and just imagine this in your mind, you pull up, you're in a car, and you see somebody walking and you roll your window down and you say, hey, do you want to come with me? Well, that person would probably run, right, but but let's pretend they were interested. They would say well, where are you going? And if you said, I'm not really sure, but I'd like you to come with me. I think that's how a lot of authors start a nonfiction book. . . is . . . I'm going somewhere, I'm writing 70 words a day. Do you want to come with me? When you start to see what you're writing is a hero's journey. How are you going to be different not as the reader but as the author? How are you a different person at the end of your book, your nonfiction book? How are you changed and transformative? What are you inviting people into? And what do they have to die to? And what do they have to be reborn to? And what struggles do they have? And where's the risk? Like you start adding those components and it becomes really far more exciting. And so if a nonfiction author sees their book, in terms of a hero's journey, I think it opens the eyes of what's possible. And I did that, like in the book, I just wrote Chaos Can't. I looked at it from the beginning as: I am struggling with being overcome by chaos. My heart feels heavy, I feel distracted, I feel taken out. I don't feel fully present. So I'm going to enter a journey where I want to overcome chaos. And the protagonist, who is the protagonist, well, I'm experiencing that. But really, the reader is the one who I think I'm inviting to step into this role of: If you want to overcome the dragon of chaos, then let's take a journey into the unknown. Let's discover what chaos really is, where its weaknesses are, what we have to die to, what we get invited into, what our superpower is, what's our superpower against chaos? And how do we end the journey, a different person. So it's a nonfiction book. But it has the beats of a great story. And I think that appeals to people who then see themselves in that story, and go, I want to be that person who overcomes chaos. And so they're coming along the ride with me. And by the end my promises, you'll be a different person; I know I am. And if we do that, then mission accomplished, right? Chaos quits winning at taking us out, at spinning us up. So I think that's a principle that it plays out a lot of different ways. It's not a formula. It's a principle, or a lens. But when we see what we write in nonfiction, through that lens, we start to breathe more life into our work.

Josh Steimle

Allen, you've been so generous with your time here today. Thank you so much for everything that you've taught us. Where is the best place for people to find you if they want to learn more about you, and what you're doing, your books, the ministry you're involved with, etc?

Allen Arnold

Yeah, the best place is my website. It's Withallen.com, wi th, Al le n dot com. And I have a lot of free videos. I don't sell anything on the site. I do give people a way to reach out to me if they want coaching services, and things like that. But the site itself has a lot of videos, teaching series, blog posts, podcasts, on how to pursue your creativity with God. And so that's a great place for them to land to explore, to check out. And the two books, it is a great way for people to understand this way of thinking and approaching life, The Story of With And Chaos Can't. The first one is how do you pursue your creativity with God? The second is, how do you overcome the chaos that is coming against you. And just spoiler alert, creativity is a big way to overcome the chaos. So actually, by knowing how you're gifted and pursuing that, you're changing the world for good. So both books deal with creativity in different ways. And those are both available on Amazon.

Josh Steimle

Great, thank you so much, Allen, really appreciate it.

Allen Arnold

Thank you. I've enjoyed it.